Just got my study plans! Woods Sango

Discussion in 'Boatbuilding' started by WoodSango, May 14, 2020.

  1. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    Masts need lots of zero degree fibers - down the length of the mast.
    If you just do woven sleeves you are going to need a lot more thickness to get enough strength, and the stiffness will not be as good.
     
  2. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    This is quite a project Rumars. Thank you for posting the link. I had a few minutes over lunch to admire your work. I wish I had also gone the infusion route, but I had already purchased my cores. You were very bold and must have had a few people help you with the infusion efforts, like the flow software. I couldn't find a soul to actually show me much on it.
     
  3. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

    No, no, please fallguy, this is not my project. Just a good resource for someone wanting to build with foam. The core was thermoformed on this build. You can buy the infusion software from the guy.
     
  4. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    Ah. My mistake. Too many r's and a's and m's in the boat and your nickname..
     
  5. WoodSango
    Joined: May 2020
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    Location: Dc metro

    WoodSango Junior Member

  6. WoodSango
    Joined: May 2020
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    WoodSango Junior Member

    Thanks, good info. I’ll start researching carbon mast layups. I can get the woven
    And uni sleeves. Might have to do a non sleeve layer to get that O degree in the stack.

    Not sure the layup schedule. But for an example I could do something like

    A uni sleeve
    Then laminate on some non sleeve carbon, giving me the fibers running north and south
    Then top that with another uni or woven

    not sure yet, much to learn on that.

    Thanks again
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2020
  7. WoodSango
    Joined: May 2020
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    WoodSango Junior Member

    Morn. From the left side of the pond, afternoon on the right

    A question before I move forward with researching this mast build.

    For a boat the size of Sango, what rigging system would you choose?

    My main goal is to have a boat that’s fast, sails like it doesn’t have mental issues, and able to do extended cruises safe. Also, the mast itself needs to be a shape that’s doesn’t require me to call NASA to laminate.

    I guess my options are

    fixed
    Rotating (round)
    Rotating with a shape
    Wing

    I plan on making my own sails. So the mast has to be compatible with a sail design
    shape, not hard to create. I don’t mind some shape in the mast, it will require Me making a mold if the shape is unique.

    I’m thinking some performance Dacron cloth with battens. Challenger

    Stay safe and have a great day
     
  8. WoodSango
    Joined: May 2020
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    WoodSango Junior Member


    I have two foam options it seems

    8mm with (600)
    10mm (400)

    Which would you prefer?

    hope all is safe
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2020
  9. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    Well, the 10mm is certainly the better option if the 400g is glass both sides.

    Here are the numbers for 5.3# foam. One sqm.

    Core 8mm 641 grams
    Glass 1200 grams
    Resin hand laid 1200 grams
    Vac ?? 800 grams
    3041 grams
    2641 grams vac

    Core 10mm 802 grams
    Glass 800 grams
    Resin hand laid 800 grams
    Vac 533 grams
    2402 grams
    2135 grams vac

    Savings is over a pound per foot no matter the method(sorry, but I live in pounds). And pretty likely the 10mm would be stiffer, but you'd have to test for sure.
     
  10. WoodSango
    Joined: May 2020
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    WoodSango Junior Member


    Humm so if I don’t worry about setting up a bag over the hulls
    And I use 10mm and 400
    I save around 30# a hull
    So 60 lbs....

    I guess the benefit of vac lies more in the better surface finish then the weight savings.
    Does save on labor, fillers.

    I was thinking infusion, but the weight savings doesn’t really justify the extra expense of that.

    I’ll just wet layup and bag it, with some absorbing material.


    Thanks for the info.
     
  11. Rumars
    Joined: Mar 2013
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    Rumars Senior Member

    I think you need to get your ducks in a row. First is the resin choice. Polyester, vinylester or epoxy? Desired finish: gelcoat or paint? Female mold, male mold? Core shaping: thermoforming, strip planking, contour cut or combiantion? Infusion or hand layup? All this choices influence each other and it is best to choose so that your life gets easier not harder.
    For example a painted surface does not warrant a closed female mold for a one off. But if you want a gelcoat finish it is almost a must. If you are working with a male mold a combination of strip planking and light thermoforming is probably the easier way. A closed mold is easier with contour cut. Infusing on an open mold is possible but not necessary on a boat your size. In a closed mold the best option is a one shot infusion.
    My advice is to forget about the diy carbon mast. It is unlikley that it will be lighter and/or cheaper then a Al extrusion. First you have to pay someone to engineer the layup for your level of technology. Then you need to buy the materials and build it accordingly.
    If you are a professional sailmaker you can do the sails yourself. Otherwise just forget it.
     
    bajansailor likes this.
  12. WoodSango
    Joined: May 2020
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    WoodSango Junior Member

    Appreciate your advice. Somethings are already decided

    Epoxy
    Stru cell p60 8mm
    Going to use sglass For the extra benefits, with the 8mm foam. (HULLS)
    Male mold
    Bagged not infused
    Paint: Alex seal, with appropriate primers ect..I’ll spray All the bottom coats And do all the prep work myself, then hire someone to come spray the top. That won’t cost much.
    All the time is in the prep...as you know.

    Where we can agree to disagree. “I can buy an alum mast for the price I can build a carbon one” if I call and get a quote for a Sheldon alum. I’m guessing over 25k?
    I’ll raise a carbon rig for half that.

    I also Don’t agree with the alum. mast will be as light as my diy carbon mast?
    That assumes I have no lamination experience and can’t keep the resin weight in check.

    Paying for my layup schedule? I’ll learn and do that myself through study and
    Asking questions. And I’ll acquire a software package to help if needed.
    Mr woods will also help with this, we already talked about my diy carbon mast method.

    I Do understand where your coming from
    . Most people think once they decide on a carbon rig, they need to remove shorts and bend over....Not so anymore...it’s 2020
    With the sleeves, that’s all changed. To be fair, I do still need to figure out how to get the 0 degree carbon in the layup, as said before, by another. Sleeves don’t offer 0 fiber runs. Shouldn’t be an issue to get that into the layup. Cart before the horse, I know. I’m going to be doing the mast rather soon. Just becuase.

    I can build a carbon mast @ 100 a foot rigged and ready to fly...50 ft mast 5k In materials (if that)

    10k with boom and a couple winches and The standing rigging.
    Let’s call Halls and get a quote?



    Cant build my own sails? Sailrite would disagree. Are they going to be north 3DI
    No, but they will keep me moving For 5 years plus. I Do like the Challenger Cloth products, and will use that. Sailrite will be paid to cut the panels.
    But your right, sails are far down the road.

    thanks again for the info.

    IF ANYONE IS TRULY INTERESTED IN BUILDING A SANGO, WE CAN SAVE MONEY ON MATS, BUYING IN BULK. IM BACK IN THE DC METRO AREA SOON.
    I would love to do a group build!

    With Mr Woods approval we can
    Share the hull molds
    Share the mast molds
    Save money on material purchasing in bulk
    If in the US (east coast) even split the cost of the building location.
    And build them side by side....all possible with a little imagination

    I’m starting build full time around oct (depending how long this covid crisis lasts)
    I have the place lined up, enough room to build 4 Sangos at the same time.
    The hard part is finding 3 others who can take off 6 months, and have the money to do so. I’ll organize it if we find the other 3! The building location has lodging for 4 without issue
    included in rent (house) The outhouse is extra! I joke...
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2020
  13. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    fallguy Senior Member

    Alexseal paint was outta my reach on the $$. But I wish I had sampled it.
     
  14. WoodSango
    Joined: May 2020
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    WoodSango Junior Member

    There is a YouTube vid showing a guy testing it with rolling. He did a test, one side rolled another side rolled and tipped. He found the tipping part wasn’t needed.
    I love Alexseal. It is costly, but I will save $$ using different brands on all the prep coats.
    Only thing purchased from Alexseal will be the top coat paint, I’ll check for compatibility of products obviously.

    Once all the prep is done, and the boats ready for top coat, it’s wouldn’t cost much to have it sprayed.

    Link: for anyone thats interested, two part series.


     
    Last edited: May 20, 2020

  15. Rumars
    Joined: Mar 2013
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    Rumars Senior Member

    S-glass, what for? The laminate is engineered for E-glass, if you keep it anything else is a waste of money. Vacuum bagging? Same thing, waste of money and time. Just slap on some peelply. 25k or even 10k for a rig without sails? Crazy expensive. I presume you have the rig dimensions, get some prices for the specified basic extrusion. Even better get on craigslist and facebook and see how much a used one costs.
    No, I do not think you can not keep the resin weight in check. Yes you can build a carbon mast, that is no problem, and if the designer is willing to supply you with a laminate schedule you are lucky. But I happen to think that to produce a mast where carbon beats Al on weight while having the same physical properties you need post cured prepregs vacuumed on an Al mandrel.
     
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