Jazz 30, sheathed plywood power cat

Discussion in 'Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building' started by xellz, Nov 17, 2019.

  1. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    That is an awful lot of hours, fallguy. Did you anticipate that ?
     
  2. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    No. I expected it would take 2 years. My hip failure added say 3 months, so 2 years and 3 months would have been my expectation. I am just a bit beyond that now, but will scramble now for a spring launch as the hull painting has destroyed my time budget.

    It is amateur hour, mind you.

    Things like painting a hull to high standards are really difficult for noobs. Ask me how I know. You can get a workboat finish very easy, but my boat is really in the $250k class of boat, so I was hoping it would look like it. Yesterday, I ordered some more special sandpapers and that will be here late Thursday, so we backfill until then. A lot of time backfill work needs to be done anyway, but vendor delays really can kill a schedule. I really need one hull out of the building to build the cabin. Vendor delays will be far worse for a man stranded on a Japanese isle as he already knows. And we have Amazon prime, so I get a lot of stuff same day here. I use a lot of gloves on this project. I probably needed to budget like 500 for gloves alone; that was an epic budget miss. Now that I have a sensitivity to epoxy, I can't take any chances at all. I am also wearing an organic mask when I mix as the vapors coming up from the pot are bothering me as well.

    Space considerations are a huge clock killing issue as well. I don't have enough room to build the boat assembled in my building; it is just too high and lifting the cabin off and on will require a crane. Right now, the cabin is sitting outside in my front yard and yesterday I spent 2 hours building a cradle to move it into the building with ease. We used a tractor to move it built halfway up (the top half won't require the hulls eh) off my vac table between the hulls to the ground outside. Anyhow, I worked 2 hours on a cradle last nite 4-6pm and scrapped the method after 2 hours and realize I have to use some steel. Fortunately, I have the material, but there is a ton of learning when you are building something as complex as a demountable powercat. And I don't weld, so it'll take me a couple hours to drill 16 holes in all the steel components for the cradle versus welding on brackets I can make on a drill press.

    There were so many things I didn't account for in time budgeting; it is rather humorous. I had to build a gantry with an I beam so I could roll the hulls over. They were simply too big to manhandle and flip. When you get up into this 10 meter range; things just get so much heavier and awkward and I wanted more control over the flips. I never realized that need I spent about $500 on parts and was lucky to have some of the materials here. So it was a budget miss as well. Now with all the structural work done, the hull weight is about #1500 pounds before engines, fuel and accessories. Way too much to lift. We had a cradle fail and had to use the gantry to pick the hull back up as it fell over and hit the crane and then I made sure my cradles were stronger. I didn't think a 6" lag bolt would pull out of end grain, but end grain is fully useless I realize (amateur hour again). The boat got on small ding fixable with fairing compound; got lucky there.

    And someone might say I could be working now instead of blabbing on boatdesign, but I am 53 this month and my legs can't go 12 hours, so I spend plenty of time resting. When you have a hip replaced, often the opposite knee fails and I am going to see the surgeon today to see if I can get out of knee pain.

    Probably wise to add 30-50% to your time budgets. So, for xellz, he said 12-14. I'll consider the 12 unreal and go for the 14, then add 50% to 21 months. I was nice and suggested 18 is more real. His ply build should be WAY faster; not sure about the circ saw.. :(
     
  3. xellz
    Joined: Jul 2017
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    xellz Senior Member

    I can measure everything alone just fine, i used this method many times before single handed. Nothing complicated, just need long enough hose, clamps and a stand, preferably with a boom arm to move hose as close as possible to a piece that will be adjusted. This way it's fast and precise. Weight string is even more simpler. I just have some trust issues for cheap laser levels, way too many mixed reviews and for such a small job getting a professional one doesn't make sense. If luck is on my side, i might be able to borrow pro tools for bulkheads setup time.

    If there will be too much waiting time might as well start working on second hull, plan for doing those jobs before other tasks not related to boat etc. One of reasons i decided to spend extra on a shed right beside home. I can also adjust my actual work time rather freely, i.e. if i want i can work full day on boat, other days break down 5-6h for boat in 3 parts and the rest earn some cash/help at home. On average 6-7h/day i want to spend on boat. How much break time i'll need during a year is still difficult to tell. Why i like Jazz30 design, there are no complicated shapes or difficult to make parts, yet end result should be good. I don't see much of a compromise for a fast build here, expect it's plywood base. For some plywood might be a big nono. Rough estimation is 500h per hull, 2000h for complete build. For the beginning i won't be installing more than engines, fishfinder/gps unit and items required by law, such as lights.

    Anyway, time will tell. The only thing i'm worrying now is to get glass layup correctly, plans are minimalistic with bare minimum information. So a bit difficult to understand for a novice in boat building. I think i got all questions sorted out, but in case i missed something Richard said it's fine to ask anytime if a problem comes up.


    But it's sure is super exiting, i never did such a big project single handed before. Waiting for materials to arrive turned out to be quite difficult because of this.
     
  4. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    I spent the entire day building a cart to move the cabin around due to space problems.

    I had a helper, so double my hours; then one of the timbers broke, so I gotta get a better one or a laminated one tomorrow!

    Moving the cabin is a space issue. A bigger shop and it would be on the boat, but my head clearance is only 13' in my building and the cabin is higher than that off the ground.

    Not to hijack, just explain some realities. I don't consider it boat building.

    This is a half height cabin because we could not build it all the way up and get it off the hulls!

    5333FC69-97D3-44FD-999B-75B532846805.jpeg
     
  5. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    There is a lot to be said for looking for short-cuts, provided they are practical, I also think pre-fab cored panels which might cost more, but save much time, are a good idea in GRP construction.
     
  6. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    BF0B541C-5180-4B7D-8143-6022DC865FAB.jpeg

    The other time killer is fairing. Talk about amateur hour.

    After two coats of primer, we broke down for the torture board.

    we have had the boat in for fairing nearly 10 weeks with two weeks off or so; we need some compound and a coat of paint on the tortured sections and then sanding again with say 180 and then another coat and sand again and then a final coat of primer, but learning curve is steep here and a workboat finish is easy, while even a semi-pro finish hard.

    We are using flexisander long board and abranet mesh..
     
  7. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    Getting a multi chine boat chine laying fair is also tricky. There is literally nothing to do right unless the chine is low in the guide coat unless you fill the entire section. Very big pita.

    This high spot can be filled down a bit.

    26E19F6D-BDF1-4B17-BC0C-E0F22CE16700.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  8. xellz
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    xellz Senior Member

    There were so many delays and changes, but finally materials arrived to island. Shipping ended up costing much more than expected. Container shipping estimate by freight forwarded was completely off, but materials already were paid for and packed. Another big expense added due to tax being twice as high as estimated by customs initially. But at least i'm still within worst case scenario material costs, not happy but kind of expected something go wrong on first big import.

    What i'm truly not happy with is the timber from Edensaw, there are several pieces that have knots in them and if i'm not mistaken, it's meant for main beams. I was expecting all clear grain grade to be actually knot free and i did mention this specifically in order request too, that timber will be used for structural components in a boat. I will inspect closely when time allows. Right now don't have defect photos. Some small damage during transportation god knows where to plywood. But think should not pose any major problem.

    Now to some really bad news, at least for me. After the order was paid, preparations more or less ready my wife got really sick and was diagnosed with serious chronicall illness. 2 months in hospital and about a year left with relatives next to hospital with no guarantee to returning to somewhat normal life style, definitely no work anymore. Lots of complication from medication and huge bill to pay (yes, japan does have national health insurance, but it doesn't cover fully and has many exceptions that it doesn't cover) i'm trying to figure out how to continue. Returning and canceling the order at that point would generate way too big loss, i'm not even sure if that could be done at all. Anyway there is just no other option for me left expect to make this project work. One year sounds much less likely to happen now, with 2 kids to take care off, all house work and major financial extra expense can't really take time off for building as much as i wanted anymore.

    I barely managed to finish most of shed just in time for material arrival, in the end decided to cover floor with concrete, previous gravel-sand mix was just way too messy and most likely would add lots of frustration during building. Had access to free premixed gravel/sand that was used for temporal road filling, far from ideal ratio but usable. Living on a remote island, concrete is a luxury. So is simple clean gravel. Armed with small electric concrete mixer, shovel and a wheelbarrow i could finish covering 3.8m x 10m area in about 5cm of rough concrete with most places reinforced by 5mm thick metal mesh. At least no cracks during moving plywood pallet which weights over 1000kg.

    Only now i'm finalizing ordering tools, so update with actual build photos will come some time in future.
     

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  9. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    The lumber looks beautiful. I would not be concerned with a small knot or two.
     
  10. xellz
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    xellz Senior Member

    5-6 knots 1.5-2.5cm wide that seem to go quite deep, one wide board about 15cm hollow spot at the end. I'm not sure if it's good or bad result for US market. But what i'm most concerned now is the amount, i went through all stock. Measured and numbered each piece since all of it is different. Instead of 444 board feet that was ordered i got 361, there is no room for any error now, in fact it's slightly less than what i have in BOM. There is also big variation in thickness. 2inch thickness actually varies from 4.5 to 5.5cm. Thicker pieces mean just a bit more work, but i'm not sure yet how to deal with 4.5cm since this is what i should be getting after planing, there is simply no thickness left to work on. I might go for lightest setting on a smoothing hand plane or maybe sand with fine grit paper on orbital sander to keep thickness as much as possible, sand until surface is acceptable.

    Most of tools i wanted arrived and now my 4*10m shed actually looks quite cramped. Will be a tight fit. Need some good planing to be able to rip timber and still walk more or less freely around the hull. But it's definitely fun work and i want to keep myself busy as much as possible anyway. I didn't rip such large pieces on table saw before, i've tried on cheap 4m 2x4 and need better support from both ends. Will try to find some roller solution to feed long timber more easily or just ask for help when going through bigger pieces, if someone helps to pull at a steady pace should give rather clean cut. Makita stock blade is more thick than i would like at 2.8mm, but right now can't really fork out more 200$ for a decent narrow blade with clean cut.
     
  11. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    Why would you plane the lumber?

    isn't al this lumber bedded in thixo? Or isn't the ply attached with thixo and screws?

    Using wood in a composite built would never require hand planing unless you use a plane to bevel a station frame or to do any other bevels not sawn
     
  12. xellz
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    xellz Senior Member

    From BOM there is such a line "All timber is "PAR", or "Planed all Round". Thus sizes given are nominal, ie 2 "x 1" has a finished
    planed size of approx 45mm x 20mm." So i think of all surfaces being smooth as necessary step. Right now surface is really rough and not even, why i thought to go with a hand plane for thinnest boards, it gives me most control with least thickness loss.
     
  13. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    No!

    This is not needed. Planed all around is just a definition.

    You do not need to plane that lovely stuff down!
     
  14. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    Epoxy and thixotropic mixes bond well to rough surfaces.

    As long as you are using thixo mixes to bond things; don't start planing all that down.

    You need to cut for yield.

    Planing is ONLY down at this point for bevels needed.

    Please heed my advice. A sawn rip is a much better epoxy surface than something planed.

    If you watch TallyHo rebuild, then you will see some expert planing, but that is for a boat where only mechanical fastenings are used.
     
    bajansailor likes this.

  15. Blueknarr
    Joined: Aug 2017
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    Blueknarr Senior Member

    FG
    Planning maybe required to square up or correct surface irregularities. Or only one surface mated to the plywood with the remaining exposed.

    Xellz
    You are victim of a supplier who figured you couldn't return the fallty wood. Edensaw may send a second correcting shipment, but don't hold your breath.
    One of the problems with remote building sites.

    Best of luck
     
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