Jazz 30, sheathed plywood power cat

Discussion in 'Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building' started by xellz, Nov 17, 2019.

  1. xellz
    Joined: Jul 2017
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    Location: Japan

    xellz Senior Member

    I'm finally near actual start of building. Ply and timber order is packed and ready to ship, transportation from US to Japan organized. This step took me unexpectedly long (and of course cost more than expected). There is no info of actual builds of Richard's Jazz30 cat online yet, so i guess my project can be of interest to some. I'll be posting here with updates. I have more time to spend on building than just a bit of weekend, so the project should go forward more quickly. I'm aiming at 12-14months from start to finish.

    Things are finally moving and i'm really exited to start, but the preparations are not done yet. I'm still thinking about which tools are necessary and which can make things easier. Have to decide before december 4-5, that's where i'm leaving island for some major shopping. For sure i will have to invest into good table saw and blade, since basically all lumber will need to be resawn, this is best i could get. In addition length of lumber is also random to some point. Scarf jointing also should benefit from good table saw.
     
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  2. Blueknarr
    Joined: Aug 2017
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    Blueknarr Senior Member

    Congrats on hitting the start button.

    For sure i will have to invest into good table saw and blade, since basically all lumber will need to be resawn, this is best i could get. In addition length of lumber is also random to some point. Scarf jointing also shouldbenefit from good table saw.

    Scarf joints are very tricky if using a tablesaw. Get a good cross cut miter saw. It will be worlds easier to scarf with.
     
  3. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    You will need a crosscut saw. Hitachi is economical and decent; sliders are more flexible for longer cuts.

    You will need a handheld jig saw.

    You will need an oscillating tool. I only use carbide cutters; the hs steel fail fast.

    You will need a belt sander.

    You will need a small router with a 3/8" radius roundover with a bearing on the bottom. I would get the palm type router.

    You will really need a good set of levels. The first days setting up my jig, I bought empire digital from HD for $150 and a $100 laser and those two were my best purchases.

    Some hand chisels..

    Tape measures were a real pita for me. I didn't find a good metric tape.

    I doubt you'll make 14 months, but maybe 18..

    Best of luck; email me if you feel jambed on anything.

    As for scarfing; avoid it when you can. For timber scarfing, if you buy a Hitachi sliding compound and make a jig; done. The jig would jist help hold the board for the cut~much safer. For plywood; if you can purchase an electric planer; they can be handy if you are good; the beltsander also useful. The electric planer is passed ober the joint and you remove all the way; say 1/16th", then you slide over 2" and do again, etc. Works pretty fast. Finish with belt sander.

    For ripping timber; only rip what you will immediately use. Otherwise it will all twist to hell. Get some shrinkwrap and tie offcuts in a squared bundle so they don't move all over.
     
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  4. bajansailor
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: Barbados

    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    Xellz, congrats from Barbados as well on starting your new project! Please do keep this thread updated with your progress (and with photos!).

    Fallguy is building a Woods Skoota 32 cat, and doing a mighty fine job of it - here is a thread he started about his project a couple of years ago.
    Traditional Build with Corecell https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/traditional-build-with-corecell.57580/

    And here is Fallguy's building thread which is very active and up to date, with over 1,000 posts. I am sure that you will find lots of useful info on here Xellz, even though you are building in plywood and Fallguy is building in foam sandwich.
    Woods Skoota 32DM - Bateau2 - Builder Forums https://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=62495
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
  5. xellz
    Joined: Jul 2017
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    Location: Japan

    xellz Senior Member

    My build is rather simple compared to most cruiser type boats, bare minimum interior work. The only tricky part that i need to figure out myself are livewells, biggest problem here is due to water inside port. From volcanic activity there is a lot of oxidized iron, can't pump fresh water all the time. Insulation also will be necessary.

    For what oscillating tool will be necessary? I didn't have a chance to use one yet. It's not that expensive if i buy for my current set of batteries, i thought of it mostly as nice to have, fun to use tool.

    For crosscuts most likely will be using only circular saw, against a fence there is no tear out or splintering. Miter saw is nice to have, but not necessary since i already do have a good 190mm circular saw. Good miter saw is rather pricey too.

    Jigsaw is definitely useful and is rather cheap tool. Have 14.4v batteries/charger from Makita, so the only question will it have enough power vs a corded jigsaw. I'm guessing it will.

    Which belt sander? Handheld with long narrow band or stationary? Main tool for re-sanding surfaces i thought to use usual random orbital sander.

    Have a router, what would be main application in boat building?

    Don't have many bulkheads to setup so probably will go with clear hose water level and strings/weights for setting up, all of this i have already.

    Good point on tying not used timber right away. I missed this.

    Luckily there is no need to use scarf joints on plywood. I can do timber scarf joints well even with circular saw and a simple jig, but the thickness is rather limited, on table saw it's easy to use full height of the blade.
     
  6. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    fallguy Senior Member

    I built a livewell with 2" xps insulation. Used 1708 so if it delams; I don't care much. Abrade the surface with floor sanding papers; hotcoat with thixo; glass adheres so so.

    A router is used anywhere you will glass over a square corner. Square corners cannot be glassed and must be radiused. You never butt glass to an edge in boat building. If you want corners square; like a transom bottom; you build back after glassing with a thixo with milled fiber and aerosil.

    You can use the ros for sanding. I just prefer a handheld belt sander for hogging. I hold the piece and the sander and the wood dust flies. For adjusting a part size fast and at the boat without taking it back to the bench for 1/8". You can also use the sander for radiusing to prep corners for glass like the router; but not as easy to get even.

    The oscillating tool is just super handy for cutting any epoxied fiberglass bits you don't want or any trimming on the boat. I use mine weekly. Another tool I like to keep near the boat. Once you are assembled; any changes or tweaks are hard to do with circular saws and jigsaws often don't fit, etc.

    Personally, I would never make all my crosscuts with a circ saw. Not saying you can't, but not me.

    You will probably find yourself wanting the crosscut at some point. They are like $200 for a cheap Hitachi.

    The water level is 2 person.

    A laser allows you to work alone to find lines; water level not so much. The Empire level and self leveling laser was needed for the sanity required in building and lining up two hulls. Be careful if you buy a laser; some Chinese brands have error rates of 3%. That is like 3" in a 30' boat.
     
  7. Blueknarr
    Joined: Aug 2017
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    Blueknarr Senior Member

    Don't cheap out on the tool up costs. The good (expensive) one simple work more consistently than el cheapos.
    You can recoup the price difference by selling them when you're done.

    An 8-1 scarf can not be done with a handheld skill saw. It won't accommodate the required angle
     
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  8. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    also unsafe
     
  9. xellz
    Joined: Jul 2017
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    xellz Senior Member

    I don't like cheap tools either, apart from longevity, they are most of the time simply not precise enough. One solution for miter saw i didn't check yet, there might be a stand for my circular saw.

    Of course not without a jig, i don't trust my hands to go perfectly straight. But a jig for a circular saw sacrifices some cutting depth for the guiding surface. If i remember right cutting depth of my circular saw was something like 65mm, it was 10mm plywood for the guiding surface. So about 52-53mm maximum scarf width. Might be possible to make a setup without loss of cutting depth, but think it's not worth the effort. Jig for table saw is easier to set up and doesn't need to sacrifice thickness. Table saw i'm looking at now has 91mm cutting capacity.


    Thanks for advice here, i'm more or less set now to what to buy. I've read about oscillating tool in more detail and for the price it's sold sure is a handy tool. What bits are you using most? Angle grinder will see a lot less use for most of the odd jobs i was using it for. Handheld belt sander too, corded one is only around 50$.


    And to add some photos in here. Instead of pipe framework garage with soft fabric building a simple shed using 2x4/structural osb. 10mx3.8m. There is a lot more work to do, but the price is quite close to pipe framework garage and i'm not running the risk of a sudden major leak with our weather. Run out of gravel/sand mix for the base, ground not perfectly level yet, but for now this will have to do. At least could replace right side soft soil layer with gravel/sand. First row of blocks is done, all pieces for trusses are also cut by now. It's time for second row and anchor bolts. Screws and polycarbonate roofing sheets somehow are delayed by quite a bit.
     

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  10. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Good luck ... from a not so far away Kobe :D
     
  11. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    fallguy Senior Member

    I just have a flat carbide cutter on mine. They dull quickly cutting hardened epoxy fiberglass. The cutter is like 25 mm -35 mm wide or so.. the wing shaped ones fail faster, so I stick with simple shapes and narrower cutters vs wide. I buy a 3 pack of universals.

    this is the shape I prefer

    https://www.amazon.com/EZARC-Oscill...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B01MG7OGLW

    I also use a 4" circ saw, but that is used for trimming glass on vacuum panels. I paid $47 bucks for it; used a lot. Trimming fiberglass edges is hard on tools and the carbides on the oscillating bits are not as hardy as a 4" circ saw blade. I realize you are building in ply, but there are places the circ saw can't go and I still end up trimming with the oscillating tool every week something..

    What resin you going with?
     
  12. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    how many hours have you spent on your build, fallguy ?
     
  13. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    fallguy Senior Member

    Ha!

    I have not kept a time log and probably just as well. I modified the building April 2017; got materials July 2017; had a slow start in August 2017 learning wet bagging; started in fall of 2017 really building. I had a helper about 100% of the time. In 2018, my hip failed and crippled my 12 hour performance to 6-7 hours (2 people). We are somewhere around 5000-8000 man hours and need about 2000 more to finish. The build is in a good place. The method is slow and I am an amateur.

    The Skoota 32 demountable version is a special boat. The demountable bit makes for a complex build. There is a lot of taking apart and putting together. For example, when you install the beam sockets; the beams must be in, but then they are in the way to glass the socket in. Then the cabin sockets are similar and they are sized and dry fit and then glued wet and then glassing is done and then the cabin socket is drilled and the beam holed and then the socket is removed and rivnuts installed. And the socket replaced and glassed while the thing is bolted in place, etc.

    The Jazz 30 is a plywood boat and will be much faster to build, but it will be fairly (all puns) impossible to get looking great and finished in 12-14 months. And if you hobble yourself with improper tools; it can take far longer. Not being able to measure alone will add weeks to the job if you ever work alone. Lasers are sort of a must. Crosscut saws, all those things add up to speedier builds.

    If I could go back; I might build a Skoota 30 in ply, but my boat is much nicer in foam.
     
  14. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    fallguy Senior Member

    An interesting anecdote to my build....

    I had a Festool 400 quarter sheet sander that had maybe 10 hours prior to starting the build. And we had to buy another one as the brushes are done. For those that doubt my hours.

    You will be doing lots of sanding and the ros doesn't work into square corners like the quarter sheet festool and we rarely used the ros as a result.
     

  15. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    The other thing that happens is wait states are imposed.

    For example, when you tape seams; you typically would not sheath the rest of the boat. If taping the seams takes 6 hours; you can't work until the seams have cured and you sand them all and blow the dirt off with compressed air or vac them off or both, etc.

    Those wait states are hard to overcome early unless you have a ton of space and can work on other aspects of the build. A lot of times early on; you simply can't work on other parts and I usually write plans for the work ahead then or some other planning/prep.

    we use shop vac and air compresser daily; even to blow cured epoxy from a measuring bucket
     
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