Japanese Quake and tsunami

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by Mr Efficiency, Mar 11, 2011.

  1. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    It will be extremely sad if it becomes Chernobyl Mk II.
     
  2. daiquiri
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design

    I have just read that radioactive Cesium has been detected outside the Fukushima power plant. That's very bad because it might indicate that the fuel rods might be exposed to the air now. Cesium is toxic, radioactive, biologically very reactive (takes place of potassium in soft tissues and in muscles) and very hard to clean from the environment.
    It could be anything between INES Level-4 and Level-7 accident by the near future, only time will tell.

    It means that we indeed might have another Chernobyl happening right now. :( :( :(
     
  3. bntii
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    bntii Senior Member

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12720219

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSUqVxrSBBI


    http://news.asiaone.com/News/Latest+News/Asia/Story/A1Story20110312-267794.html
    http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFTKZ00680620110312

    "We've confirmed that the reactor container was not damaged. The explosion didn't occur inside the reactor container. As such there was no large amount of radiation leakage outside," he said.
    "Edano said due to the falling level of cooling water, hydrogen was generated and that leaked to the space between the building and the container and the explosion happened when the hydrogen mixed with oxygen there."
     
  4. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    I just heard that all in the area are being given potassium iodide prophylactically.
     
  5. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    The recent explosion at Fukushima was caused by Hydrogen according to reports. This sounds like Three Mile Island where hydrogen was also released following equipment multiple failures and operator error, but no hydrogen explosion occurred at 3MI.

    Hydrogen results from high temperatures when metal combines with water, removing the oxygen and leaving hydrogen. The reactor was destroyed at 3MI. Critical reactor damage has almost certainly occurred at Fukushima, although the containment vessel integrity is supposed to be OK so far. I doubt the use of sea water as a coolant will improve matters.

    I did not see any solid debris hurled into the air by the explosion although it was followed by clouds of steam and/or dust. Therefore the explosion may have taken place in the atmosphere. However, I seriously doubt we are being given the full story by Japanese nuclear power officials.
     
  6. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Explosions at nuclear plants are not nuclear but obviously can result in release of radioactive material. At Chernobyl, following the reactor vessel rupture the graphite moderator contacted air and burned carrying nuclear contamination far and wide.

    Following shutdown, power doesn’t fall to zero immediately. The primary coolant must continue to circulate and if that is not enough additional cooling water is injected to remove heat. At Three Mile Island the coolant boiled so the pumps stopped working, when cooling water was injected the flow was reduced by error.

    A nuclear power station should obviously be designed so anything and everything can fail without catastrophic result. Reliance on powered cooling water circulation and other active systems which can go wrong is not enough. Nuclear reactions require a moderator to slow neutrons without absorbing them and loss of moderator should result in loss of power. The Canadian Candu reactor is designed to flush its moderator like a toilet bowl as a last resort if pressure in the reactor builds sufficiently ifollowing cooling failure. I like the idea of such a passive system, however, I don’t know if it was ever tested.

    There will always be risks associated with nuclear power generation using fission due to the amount of fuel required and the fact that its radioactivity increases with use. Fusion technology should be much safer but it is far more difficult to implement. The worst part is, the media does not distinguish between the two. People rightly fear what can kill them without being seen, but we have become accustomed over centuries to the side effects of industrial chemicals; Bhopal resulted in more deaths than Chernobyl.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2011
  7. mark775

    mark775 Guest

    At 1:00AM I was alone in a bay named Port Chatham on the tip of the Kenai Peninsula. It is in a radio near-dead zone but I did get the broken Pan-Pan from the CG - "At 8:47 GMT, a tsunami wave has been generated with massive destructive capability. It is due to hit Shemya at 1:11 AKtime, Adak at 1:40,.." "Break..." "... A tsunami is a series of waves which may be dangerous for many hours after the initial wave. All persons are urged to get out of the water, away from shorelines and harbors. It is impossible to predict the size of waves at various points..." "Break..." "... The wave is due to arrive at the below locations...at Dutch Harbor, 2:12AM, At Sand Point 2:31, at Cold Bay, 2:37" (Okay, Cold bay is West of Sand Point, so the wave must be coming from the East...What? It gets to the Aleutians before the Ak Peninsula but Sand Point after Cold Bay? Where was the wave generated, damn-it?!) "Kodiak 3:51, Seward, 4:17, Cordova, Valdez, Ketchikan, etc.,..Homer 5:08AM. This Alert is valid between Attu Island and THe US/Mexican Border..." "Break..." "... Ships at sea are encouraged to avoid bays and harbors..." "... A tsunami is a series of waves..."
    The moon had just dippped beyond the mountains, A fog was obscuring the stars. NobleTec has a "Daylight" setting which will blind you at night until Tuesday, A "Twilight" setting which one can gray until almost black - but still has a blinding border, and A "Night" setting, which is red and dark enough that one cant read the writing nor the icon - tho the chart comes out fine. So over the computer goes a heavy wool blanket. I use a paper chart (remember those?) with a penlight shing through my fingers to dim the light, as needed. Depth finder brightness control? Not on this sport (Apelco) Model - turn it off. Radar? Thanks, God, that I have a good Radar and it dims perfectly. Navigation lights shining on the foredeck and railing - turn 'em off - there's not another boat for miles. Pick the way out of the hidey-hole but it's blowing 18 out of the North and now I have other boats and ships almost within passing situations - on go the running (navigation) lights. Why did the backlight bulb on the compass pick now to burn out? 5.08, uh, I can make it back to Homer and get behind the Spit in some very deep water, then be ready to assist if the harbor needs me. Dozens of oncoming boats (getting out of the harbor, I presume, some just going fishing) spray freezing on my window.
    In Alaska, we have a phenomenon whereby there are large number of fishermen who are afraid of the dark. Their boats have sodium vapor lights ("sodiums") that were used for crabbing and are legally required "to be used solely while in fishing operations" but the CG will not enforce this. So, rendered incapable of seeing anything but blinding white lights, I came to pass the Spit, itself. A lot of freshwater ice (hard, dirty) here now, out of the head of the bay, four foot pans, fifteen inches thick, jostling for the position of being one to scratch my boottop or hit my running gear. Then I wait. No wave, but the Marine Weather channel put on endless rewind "A tsunami is a..." until six that night.
    This one had no effect here other than inconvenience. My heart goes out to the people who were directly effacted by this.
     
  8. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    Thank God. The poor Japanese are having it rough.
     
  9. Vulkyn
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    Vulkyn Senior Member

    My heart goes to all the families and people lost in this epic disaster .... If this had occurred in a country that was not prepared the death toll would have been in thousands maybe millions. I am your ok Ad Hoc, the sight of the boats being drifted on shore along with cars and houses was a truly scary scene.

    Hope things dont get any worse and glad the US navy is lending a hand.
    http://edition.cnn.com/2011/US/03/12/quake.response/index.html
     
  10. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    Thank you, U.S. Navy, for all you do!
     
  11. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    I doubt the Japanese are being totally open about the Fukushima situation. They have a history of covering up nuclear power incidents, reportedly going as far as falsifying reports, editing videotapes and the use of gag orders.

    I therefore put the worst possible interpretation on anything that originates with the Japanese nuclear authorities. They are describing this as an accident with “local consequences” - someone there has a sense of humor. This event has already gone further down the road than Three Mile Island; IMHO the only thing that has prevented another Chernobyl so far is the fact theat the moderator is water and not graphite.

    This nuclear power plant uses enriched uranium fuel which is far more active than the natural uranium used in the Canadian Candu reactor I mentioned earlier. This explains why it is taking so much longer to cool down.

    Reports that the reactor's primary containment vessel is intact are probably correct, but that’s only half the story. It is now reported that the explosion occurred within the containment building surrounding the reactor which is designed to keep dangerous material enclosed in the event of a major accident, so it is badly damaged. I did not see debris hurled into the sky by the blast in the video of the incident - probably because the roof of the building is several meters thick of reinforced concrete and did not rise high enough to be visible. The pattern of the shock waves suggested a vertical release and so the roof must be shattered. It seems likely that arrangements for controlled release of hydrogen as was done in Three Mile Island either did not work or were not implemented.

    I heard a scientist discussing the potential for a meltdown, and he commented that the containment building is intended to contain the products of meltdown and clearly had doubt that it could do so, however he did not seem to be aware that the containment building itself has been breached already. Within what is left of that building there is a desperate fight to prevent the fuel - hot enough to break down water and produce hydrogen - from melting through the reactor vessel.

    With the potential for another Chernobyl, I hope all the US navy ships heading that way are adequately equipped to handle nuclear fallout conditions.

    FYI the current Jet Stream goes from the general area of Japan across the pacific to Vancouver on Canada’s Western shore, then runs South across the US border over Washington State, Oregon, Idaho, Northern Nevada, Utah, and swings East and North again over Chicago, Detroit, Pittsburgh ... well you’ve got the picture. Lower level air currents swirl in other directions but it’s not just China that’s at risk IMHO. Chernobyl fallout reached Finland and Germany.

    At this point I doubt a meltdown will produce enough heat to transport material as high as the Jet Stream, but that's based on what I think I know and what I have been told; neither are enough to make a judgement at this time. The worst-case scenario is unlikely, but it is definitely on the cards ...
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2011
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  12. Submarine Tom

    Submarine Tom Previous Member

    It was interesting to see the NOAA (USA) graphic depicting wave height across the pacific imaged from a satelite. It showed how unpredictable propagation can be. About two hours after the predicted tsunami arrival time, one of our harbours went into a 7 minute cycle of dropping 4 feet (1.3m) and then rising back up. Interesting.

    -Tom
     
  13. Vulkyn
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    Vulkyn Senior Member

  14. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    See those boats immediate righting after going over the edge....

    @ 0:59 goes one... immediate rights... and gets under the bridge....

    @ 1:09 goes one... rights in seconds... and gets a big one on top which also rights....

    Good boat builders those Japanese, but very sad to see it proved this way....

    Sad, sad, sad, and those are only the 'little things' right now :(

    Can't say ‘‘cheers’’ now..
    :( Angel
     

  15. kroberts
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    kroberts Senior Member

    I've seen that video several times, and was always focused on the human tragedy. Never noticed the righting of the boats.

    But it brings a serious question to me, I think if you were on a boat already and a warning came out about an imminent tsunami, would the best strategy be to head for deep water ASAP? How would you go about improving your chances?
     
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