Is there a perfect engine?

Discussion in 'Diesel Engines' started by Northwindii, Mar 6, 2016.

  1. slow fred
    Joined: Feb 2011
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    slow fred Junior Member

    I like the NH 855 Cummins. I have seen these engines with 25k hours and still going. Parts are everywhere. Horsepower 220 to 450.
     
  2. makobuilders
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    makobuilders Member

    NH855 seems like an equally great engine. Doesn't quite start in 1/3 second like a DD, but probably a lot quieter ;)

    I notice that no one in this thread has mentioned how their modern, tier 4, electronically controlled engine is the best in the world.

    Gotta love old school and old iron!!
     
  3. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    BTW to add fuel to the DD Express... I have gotten many of them that were sunk, and after months, taken them apart, cleaned them, and added oil, and off they went.
     
  4. jmiele3
    Joined: Jan 2012
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    jmiele3 Junior Member

    100% correct. I work for Baudouin. When I am quoting an engine on a project, the very first question I ask is "How will the engine be used?" Our engines have a fantastic reputation when installed on workboats, commercial fishing boats. (Last year, we re-built one of our engines that was built in 1933, with nearly 500,000 hours on it.)

    On recreational vessels? Less than stellar.

    Sure, they will work. However, they are heavy. They can be noisy. Our older mechanical engines perform best when they are used every day... not sitting at a dock. In other words, not optimal.

    Most older mechanical engines will give exceptionally long life spans (not just ours). However, as the other comments stated, emissions has changed the market significantly. Engine makers have been forced to comply.

    An example is our M26 series.

    Our M26.2 is mechanical, and has been in production for 25 years. Most current buyers are in the developing world, and this engine is not uncommon to have a life span of over 100,000 hours.

    Our M26.3 is electronic, and uses the exact same block. We therefore have a very long life cycle on this engine. It is also more complex due to the electronics and fuel systems.

    It is similar with Cummins, CAT, and everyone else. Those who use heavier, iron blocks on the electronic engines tend to be more reliable and have longer life spans. Those using lighter blocks tend to show shorter life spans.

    The point of all this is that the market has changed and is never going back. Engine makers have no choice but to adapt. I have seen an engineer shed a tear when his beloved EMD's were replaced by electronic CAT Acerts due to CARB. Those days are now gone forever.
     
  5. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

  6. jmiele3
    Joined: Jan 2012
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    jmiele3 Junior Member

    Ten years ago, when CARB came into effect, they had no choice. In fact, in the situation I mentioned, CAT won the tender with a bid of $0.... and an exclusive service agreement.

    Most engine makers can now comply using various means. It is actually the EPA certification process and VERY high expense (and time, for that matter) that has hampered most.

    At Baudouin, we had choices to make. New engine designs are Tier 3 and Tier 4. Older engine designs are either sold in areas with no regulations (all are Tier 2 minimum) or compliant with aftertreatment (conversion kits). I would also note that the price of afterttreatment is headed downward, slowly, and the size of the units is shrinking.
     
  7. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    Are you talking medium speed engines?
     
  8. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    IN many applications folks that live in Air Police areas simply do not want the complexity or cost of electronic turboed engines.

    Who is getting close to a Tier 3 or 4 engine that is legal, but does not have the complexity handicap?
     
  9. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    I think Tier 1 was the end of most and I dont think anybody made it to tier 2 without electronics, If we are talking high speed diesels?
     
  10. Lepke
    Joined: Sep 2015
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    Lepke Junior Member

    The problem with most new or newer engines is electronics. They all fail to some degree in time. To have the same reliability of a mechanical engine you're forced to carry thousands in spares. Tier isn't applied to yachts, yet.
    In the last 5 years, my Detroit mains have had no failures. No injectors, no pumps, not even a raw water impeller. Almost always ran at 1800.
    Heavy duty diesels are more economic because of their size, big flywheel, turning a big propeller. I push a 83', 80 ton boat at 10 knots (in the ocean) at 8.5 gallons an hour and 7 knots at about 4 gallons. Last time I checked was in the North Pacific with weather at small craft warning or better. (Lots of up and down) Not many of you can come close to that in nautical miles per gallon.
     
  11. makobuilders
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    makobuilders Member

    So that big Wheeler of yours is only pulling about 140-160 hp to run at 10 knots. That's amazing! Let's see a modern, short, fat trawler duplicate that!
     
  12. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    There's actually quite a few yachts out there that can do similar.

    BTW.no mentions of Gardner, Grenaa,nor Callesen, Bukh etc
     
  13. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    I push a 83', 80 ton boat at 10 knots

    9x9 =81,,, as most boats will do the SQ RT LWL times 1.15 as an easy push

    10K is not hard to consider.

    2 HP per ton (2240lbs) is not uncommon for a fuel bill, 80 tons displacement 160HP required 15 -18 HP per gallon , is about right.

    Nothing remarkable here , just a well planned boat with an efficient engine.
     
  14. jmiele3
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    jmiele3 Junior Member

    Actually, high speed on the CAT (C32). Tier 3 became required in the USA this year, and Tier 4 coming soon (Though CARB was essentially equivalent to Tier 3... few differences, though).

    Tier 4 has been challenging. Most engine makers are going with the SCR option, but a few are designing new models that will squeak by. It will be expensive for the owners to comply.

    One thing that has not been mentioned in this thread is that the emissions requirements have forced engine makers to make engines that are lighter and significantly consume far less fuel.

    I recently had a repowering of some old Detroits versus our new electronic model (1500 hp). Though the Detroits were considered fuel efficient when they were new (1986... and served the customer very well), our new engines were 1,400 kg lighter (same power and torque) and consumed over 20 g/kWh less fuel. The added complexity, however, can offset the savings through increased maintenance. The quality of the ECU and the software is really the critical bit. Good software will mean lower costs. Some engine makers are very good on this, others, not so much.

    In engine sales, trust me, I hear many complaints from people who now need to comply when they re-power.
     

  15. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    do you have medium speed engines in your portfolio as they are way harder to get compliance and have had easier rules to get buy with.
     
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