Is rhino still the way to go for a hobbyist?

[pironiero]

I would never pick a power tool over a hand tool simply because it is a power tool; I would choose the right tool for the job. I think the problem is that you belive that all computer program algortihms are the same and correct simply because they are from a computer; where I know that this is incorrect. The descretation required for digital solutions cannot exactly model a continious hull shape....it can be good enough, it can be close, but it will never be exact.... and you need to use many different programs until you find the one that suits your needs. RHINO is a great surface modeler, however it needs extensive pre-processing to enter a table of offsets and some plug-ins or post-processing to generate hull offsets and hydrostatics (depending on which version you have). If you have an existing hull, it is better and faster to take the lines off and calculate by hand/spreadsheet than it is to try and torture RHINO into getting it correct. Or if you whish to be professional, spend the money and use photogrammetry.

I don’t have an existing hull, nor have I ever planned to become a professional designer. I just want to try designing a sailboat to fit a box rule.

 

[pironiero]

I would never pick a power tool over a hand tool simply because it is a power tool; I would choose the right tool for the job.

So you would pick a hand drill over a power drill to make a hole in a concrete wall?

 

[Ad Hoc]

.... So what’s the most suitable and cost-effective software for a hobbyist like me to design a sailboat?...

Well, you need to understand what "Design" means.
Under this one word noun, is a multitude of different disciplines, that all come together.

So for example, (paraphrasing JEH), one tool you use would eb for the lines, the hull surface. Thus one 'tool' to create your hull shape. A shape that is fair and developable.
Then another 'tool' to take that shape, and to get simple hydrostatics to establish will it float, will it float upright and will it float on the draft you desire.
Then another 'tool' to calculate the strength, whether this be a simple pen paper and calculator or the other end of this discipline an FEA program - just another tool.
Then another 'tool', to create a table of the weights and centres...to establish what the design will weigh and where the LCG and VCG are for said design.
And so on...and so on.

There are "some" programs out there that try to combine all this different disciplines into one software.
Most do it poorly and those that are half decent cost the earth and require stupid annual fees for the licencing; but it is still not a panacea.

Thus you need to decide and understand what aspect of "Design" you mean and wish to explore.
But do not expect the software to be a simple press button - tada - moment, nor be a 5min job. Since you'll be the slave not the master, and end up with the classic GIGO.

 

[jehardiman]

So you would pick a hand drill over a power drill to make a hole in a concrete wall?

Again, you are not considering the implications; just a quick, ill-considered, response to support your pre-concieved position. How big a hole? How deep? What accuracy the location? What precision the diameter? A sledge hammer, hammer drill, power drill, hand drill, or even an awl, will all make a "hole" in a concrete wall....make a deliberate choice based on what you need, not just the "power" aspect of the tool.

 

[pironiero]

Again, you are not considering the implications; just a quick, ill-considered, response to support your pre-concieved position. How big a hole? How deep? What accuracy the location? What precision the diameter? A sledge hammer, hammer drill, power drill, hand drill, or even an awl, will all make a "hole" in a concrete wall....make a deliberate choice based on what you need, not just the "power" aspect of the tool.

You're still trying to expand the subject to avoid answering the question, I'll make it more clear for you, in the situation where you need to figure out a square root of some random number, for example √694201337 would you go for a calculator or do it by hand?
Would you stop trolling? Are you trying to steer me away from the idea? You won't succeed.

 

[pironiero]

Well, you need to understand what "Design" means.
Under this one word noun, is a multitude of different disciplines, that all come together.

So for example, (paraphrasing JEH), one tool you use would eb for the lines, the hull surface. Thus one 'tool' to create your hull shape. A shape that is fair and developable.
Then another 'tool' to take that shape, and to get simple hydrostatics to establish will it float, will it float upright and will it float on the draft you desire.
Then another 'tool' to calculate the strength, whether this be a simple pen paper and calculator or the other end of this discipline an FEA program - just another tool.
Then another 'tool', to create a table of the weights and centres...to establish what the design will weigh and where the LCG and VCG are for said design.
And so on...and so on.

There are "some" programs out there that try to combine all this different disciplines into one software.
Most do it poorly and those that are half decent cost the earth and require stupid annual fees for the licencing; but it is still not a panacea.

Thus you need to decide and understand what aspect of "Design" you mean and wish to explore.
But do not expect the software to be a simple press button - tada - moment, nor be a 5min job. Since you'll be the slave not the master, and end up with the classic GIGO.

Of course I don't expect it to be a one button press job, the whole point of this thread, at least for me it's too figure out what software would be best to learn to minimize the amount of roadblocks like i have in delftship, is a good software and I've spenta great deal of time on it and was thinking about buying it but at first decided to ask here if it would be the right choice.

 

[CarlosK2]

Paper, pencil and spreadsheets

Q: Is "Rhino" capable of Calculate This (Up, Beating Upwind) or This (Down, Surfing Downwind)
A: No

 

[pironiero]

View attachment 205934

Paper, pencil and spreadsheets

Q: Is "Rhino" capable of Calculate This (Up, Beating Upwind) or This (Down, Surfing Downwind)
A: No

View attachment 205935
View attachment 205936
View attachment 205937

Yeah but wouldn't it be able to do most of necessary stuff? Or any other software for that matter, I refuse to believe that in our age pan and paper is the primary way to solve this sorts of things

 

[CarlosK2]

Q: can "Rhino" Calculate the hydroDynamic Yaw Moment of the Hull, that is The Max Michael Munk Moment

A: No

 

[CarlosK2]

Q: can "Rhino" Calculate the hydroDynamic_CLR = Munk + Keel + Rudder

A: No

2 fuxxx axis: Pitch and Yaw

 

[CarlosK2]

Can Rhino draw The Franz Joseph von Gerstner Wave

Franz Josef Gerstner - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Josef_Gerstner

And Calculate DriveForce and Resistance at 20 knots

 

[baeckmo]

Well Piro, I can see your point in using the computer here, even if only to "get the hang of it". Like you, I really don't feel comfortable with the manipulation of the spline control points of the Delftship/Freeship, so a compromise is to use a CAD software to make the 3D model, then there are more ways to go, for example as follow:

A/ In a previous thread you showed your capacity with "FreeCad" (wish I could improve on that one myself). There you should be able to analyze the submerged volumes, both upright and inclined, in terms of displacement, area, center of buoyancy, moment of inertia aso. Admittedly, it will take some iterations, but it is quite quick (I even think I saw a "Marine Workbench" for FC some time ago).

B/ Transfer your FC CAD offsets to Delft/Freeship for hydrostatics.

C/ Trace a version of the old "Hullform" software; either do the full hull construction there, or again lift over your CAD design and run the hydro within that frame.

 

[pironiero]

Well Piro, I can see your point in using the computer here, even if only to "get the hang of it". Like you, I really don't feel comfortable with the manipulation of the spline control points of the Delftship/Freeship, so a compromise is to use a CAD software to make the 3D model, then there are more ways to go, for example as follow:

A/ In a previous thread you showed your capacity with "FreeCad" (wish I could improve on that one myself). There you should be able to analyze the submerged volumes, both upright and inclined, in terms of displacement, area, center of buoyancy, moment of inertia aso. Admittedly, it will take some iterations, but it is quite quick (I even think I saw a "Marine Workbench" for FC some time ago).

B/ Transfer your FC CAD offsets to Delft/Freeship for hydrostatics.

C/ Trace a version of the old "Hullform" software; either do the full hull construction there, or again lift over your CAD design and run the hydro within that frame.

Big thanks
It seems that there is a plugin for freecad made for boat design
https://github.com/FreeCAD/freecad.ship

 

[SukiSolo1]

I have used Rhino since before it's official launch in 1998. It was available as a working Beta prior to launch for those that wanted to know how come? I bought it here in UK on launch and have used all versions bar Rhino 6. As a 3D modeller it is excellent but a novice modeller might be a bit frustrated with very subtle shapes or shape changes. It can handle pretty much anything but as wisely said (by others above) it does NOT give you enough data for in depth marine design. BTW if you use 4 planks a side in ply you will get to within 3mm of a smooth hull shape.

I've mainly used it only for dinghy stuff and it's good at that but I needed to do a whole load of extra stuff ie plot curve of areas/displacement, prismatic C/f, diagonals etc. If your happy to do those things slowhand (it can do the area calcs/volumes in local bits) then it may do what you want. These days with SubD surfaces and Grasshopper and it allows you to write routines in C++ for various things stuff is quite complex. There are over 1200 commands in it - Version 8.

As a translator between programs it is probably unbeatable (superb compatibility with SolidWorks) but I have had assymetrical hull surfaces in from MaxSurf (via Iges). It does have tools to refair surfaces but you need to know what you are doing. I've also developed some aluminium aircraft wings in it and showed wher the alloy was stretching - using the develop surface tools - good for ply because it generates the cutting shape and size for weight calcs. It will do sails too, I've traced a drone photograph of a boat from above well enough to generate mast bend data and sail shape (to panels) inside the program.
The interface of Rhino is pretty good and fairly intuitive. It was designed to be easy for Autocad users to pick up *some bits I still don't like! But that is very different to a lot of fully parametric 3D modellers like Creo, Inventor etc. What you can do is run sets of planes through a hull to get nice waterline shapes and you can do this at different angles/trim/depth loading etc. You'll just need to go through it a bit more to really understand the implications of shape changes - this is the bit where experience counts. It is faster than pencil and paper but still just a tool. A good 2D drafter is a very useful cmpanion to it although it is a lot better than it used to be in this area.

I personally like it but then I use it on lots of other non marine stuff like 3D printing, architectural stuff, staircases, injection mouldings, musical instruments etc. For a very small business one or two man band operation it makes sense. Beware of the learning curve even though it is pretty easy to pick up the basics it can get complex pretty quick. If you know your way around Degree 3 NURB curves you will probably feel at home!

For me I use it as an affordable tool, I am aware of the shortcomings in a professional naval architectural way. If I was exclusively in that world or needed to do a project in that field I would have no hesitation in finding a tool (software) appropriate for that job.

 

[pironiero]

First if all-huge thanks, that's the reply i was hoping to get

BTW if you use 4 planks a side in ply you will get to within 3mm of a smooth hull shape.

I'm struggling to understand this phrase, i think i understand it, but not sure.


One more thing, if you don't mind, do you have any opinion on orca3d, plugin for rhino 6?