Interest in war

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by SamSam, Sep 24, 2007.

  1. Bergalia
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    Bergalia Senior Member

    In which case you should be able to follow Jimbo's logic which makes perfect sense - even though he neglected to mention Kipling (The Great Game).:)
     
  2. safewalrus
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    safewalrus Ancient Marriner

    Why we're involved in Agfannystan is beyond me - nobody has ever beaten these guys, they are a hardy race who's firm belief in the right to rule themselves is paramount - and the sad thing is there's bugger all the rest of the world wants there! (OK so it's the centre of opium growing etc. but if we're honest about that we don't want it, so destroy it, problem solved)

    We have actually gone back twice are we stupid or what, leave them be! (actually we had people in there whilst the Russians were there fighting with the Taliban but that's a different story)

    Bit like the Scots, maybe that's why we go back, their biggest enemy is their own leaders, again like the Scots! who was it emptied the Black Isle and got all the people to emigrate, who was it won at Drumossie Moor (whose soldiers bore the brunt of the fighting, on both sides) Hang in there Bergalia - you love us really, we've been your reason to live for years!
     
  3. Bergalia
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    Bergalia Senior Member

    Right again Mike. Those bloody chieftains, emptied not just the Black Isle but most of Sutherland and beyond - 'The Clearances' shifting the people to make way for sheep. But you'd understand - being a Celt - almost as good as being a Gael....

    Small true tale about the Black Isle (a peninsula actually across the firth from Inverness) - it's Mackintosh country. Great title to be 'The Mackintosh'.
    Back in the 1980's the title fell vacant and only two men could claim 'blood' right to the name. One, an English colonel whose address was Kensington; the other a beach lemonade salesman whose address was Kingston Jamaica...(His great great grandfather - being one of the proscribed Highlanders, sold into slavery by the English, had married a 'native' girl.)
    The final vote was left to members of the clan - so naturally they chose the chappie from Jamaica. Black as anthracite and with a great sense of rythm - and he raised the wildest cheer from the crowds at then annual gathering of Clan Chieftains in Edinburgh.
     
  4. RHP
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    RHP Senior Member

    Me thinkies we are talking at cross purposes: admitted inconsistant policies in one part of a region during specific eras do not necessarily account for lawlessness in another, during another.

    Corrupt, incompetant and dictatorial power bases (be they presidential or religious) have done more to hold back the development of the region in the past 30 years than you can rightly justify as being due to the mis-drawing of frontiers or Lawrence crossing the sands on his camel.

    History is not only stuck in the past it is recent events - the last 40 years included, which has witnessed the greatest explosion in economic and social progress since the industrial revolution which in its wake finally broke the back of both the USSR and China into abandoning centrally controlled governments and economies and led them into capitalist policies as they realised if they didnt, civil unrest would pre-empt a change in regime (and bankruptcy). Middle eastern nations who bang their chests (with their high illiteracy rates and non existant health care, social support programs etc..) can rant and rave and jump from mountain top to mountain top playing hide and seek as much as they like, but in reality in their perverse way, it is a cry against the failures of their own governments over the last 40 years to make any attempt to modernise, industrialise and participate in the general progress that pains them. Interestingly, the civil unrest that the Russians and Chinese feared (and still fear) is occuring in these middle eastern societies however they have managed to spin it from teh main source of their long term anguish onto the devil yankee, that being of course a gameplan with a limited shelf life unless the leaders take teh dire message and agree to implement change which is what we are currently seeing in Palestine today (literally) and in nations throughout the middle and far east focusing on education to raise the literacy level to allow folks to think for thmeselves and better understand the ways of the world as opposed to have the qoran rammed down their throats by jingoistic and fanatic mullahs - for example the recent great progress in Pakistan and Saudi in raising their literacy rates. It´s a socio issue with out of date systems trying to retain control against the flow of progress.

    Its all out there, you just have to take the time to research it and ignore misinformation from whichever side is trying to make a point. :D


    Now then, someone mentioned WW2? What about the bl**dy Romans?

    Or the Vikings, they left the old boats all over the place......
     
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  5. RHP
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    RHP Senior Member

     
  6. safewalrus
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    safewalrus Ancient Marriner

    But surely Bergalia this chappie would be wearing a tartan with a dark green sett (ye Ken the one I mean - does fortytwa link in and no 42 commando! tho' they too wear the green);)
     
  7. charmc
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    charmc Senior Member

    Jimbo, RHP,

    Avast, me hearties, and stop wasting time berating each other! You've each demonstrated solid knowledge of aspects of the underlying causes of conflict in the Middle East and elsewhere. Knowledge, I might add, apparently all too lacking in many of our "leaders", and, more sadly, in the products of "teach the bare minimum to pass the tests" public education systems who vote them into office.

    Jimbo, you're right about the effect of 19th and early 20th Century colonial policies in creating highly artificial "countries" held together by force of arms. Iraq is certainly an example. A land of multicultural tribal groups, it was united only under the armies of occupation of numerous empires, from Sumerian to British, and formalized as a politically unified "country" only by British colonial policy. Actually, nearly all of the current Middle Eastern countries are 20th Century creations of Britain and France.

    RHP, your local knowledge and experience is impressive. Your contention that the failed policies of repressive governments, both religious and secular, are responsible for much of the unrest and violence in the region is correct. Al Qaeda and the ignorant Wahabi mullahs find fertile ground in the minds of young people raised in extreme poverty and see little in the way of prospects for raising their standards of living.

    However, I disagree with you when you attempt to separate those policies from the historical circumstances which resulted in the establishment of the arbitrary borders of those nations and the structures of their governments. They are, IMHO, inextricably intertwined. To blame the current government of Iraq for failing to unite diverse religious and ethnic groups into a stable independent parliamentary government in less than 3 years is ludicrous in light of modern Iraq's brief history: established in 1926, British army occupied 1926 -1932 and 1941-1947; King imposed by Brits ruled 1932-1958, series of military coups every few years from 1958 until 1979, when Sadaam became dictator by assassinating all the other top leaders of the Baath Party. Prior to a few years ago, the people of Iraq had never experienced an election. Similar events from the 1920's to the 1940's established the boundaries and governments of most of what we call the countries of the Middle East. Historically, the region has been at peace only when occupied by armies, representing either outside empires or local dictators/kings.

    Soooo, much of the Middle East is composed of countries with little historical basis for their boundaries, presided over by governments with little basis for historical legitmacy, and certain in the knowledge that, were it not for oil and the possibilitiy of acquiring nuclear weapons, no government outside the region would give a damn.

    Perhaps the wonder is that there is any peace at all .....:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
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  8. charmc
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    charmc Senior Member

    Or the Assyrians, Akkadians, Babylonians, Persians, Islamic Caliphs, Mongols, Ottomans, etc. As I mentioned, the region has little experience of stable government other than that backed by armies of occupation. The 20th Century colonial power policies that established the current arbitrary boundaries and corrupt governments are the most recent chapters in a long history of governmental abuse.

    You're right about progress, though. Despite the fact that their motive is to try to fend off a future with mobs carrying torches invading their palaces, the Saudi princes and Pakistani dictator are to be commended for finally beginning to provide education for the common citizens.
     
  9. RHP
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    RHP Senior Member

    Very good post Charlie, well done. It is undeniable that footprints exist around the world where former colonial powers left their marks. At the time, colonial rule was the norm across the globe, being in itself one of the causes of the first world war. In that respect, it became more imprtant how a nation unwound its empire that set the course for the future. The Brits left India having provided as best a possible solution whilst being powerless to stop the wheels that were already in motion. In Africa 15 years later we pulled out in a largely responsible manner and left those nations in fair economic and political shape. Maybe, the failings of the middle east are more to the inability of certain local populations to respond to the challenge due to cultural differences between say Indians and certain African nations?

    I'm not justifying the fact these nations were colonialised etc.. however once withdrawal was completed they largely started from the same launch point?

    Qqqquite agree with your last para, look at Yemen for an example !

    Yours aye
    Richard
     
  10. Bergalia
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    Bergalia Senior Member

    Typical of Charlie to step in and put a sensible slant on what was warming up to a decent debate....:mad:
     
  11. safewalrus
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    safewalrus Ancient Marriner

    Hell these post are supposed to be entertainment - if the present longwinded bull~***# continues we'll be bored into our graves befoe we reach 21. Enough I say, lets get back to the light hearted bitching and name calling! Leave the edumacation to the technical forums - this is supposed to be about boats!

    Boats do have a use in this lot though - they can be used to help you escape from being drowned in a sea of poo :mad:
     
  12. RHP
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    RHP Senior Member

    Safewalrus,

    What is your problem??? Every post I make you say is boring and you become offensive. Are you jealous? You some kinda miserable Victor Meldrew ?

    You need to get out in the fresh air more often.
     
  13. Bergalia
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    Bergalia Senior Member

    Pah - They're all nuts in Brazil....
     

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  14. safewalrus
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    safewalrus Ancient Marriner

    RHP - the wife's actually, now go bore the *** of somebody else!
     

  15. RHP
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    RHP Senior Member

    Please post a picture to substantiate that claim !
     
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