"Inspired" by gas prices...

Discussion in 'Gas Engines' started by die_dunkelheit, Feb 28, 2012.

  1. hoytedow
    Joined: Sep 2009
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    OK, it means +- 1/6,840,507,003; same as yours. :cool:
     
  2. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    was briefly reading this thread--
    i know about the pissed off about gas prices thing...this is why im looking at steam/or electric alternatives in my tugboat.

    here is the facts on oil though--and this isnt a criticism at all--
    oil contains such a high amount of energy in such a small amount that there is really nothing that can replace it--it really is almost like free energy--now some of you are going to argue this point but wait till you read the following-

    we complain about oil costs- but for about 25 cents i can buy a cup of diesel. if i put this cup of diesel into an excavator(to do work) and use up that cup of fuel- i can run for maybe about five-or so minutes perhaps a bit longer...
    now if dig a hole in five minutes with that large excavator -i might get as far as...ohh lets say 10 ft x 5 x 10-estimating; now if i told you to go dig that same size hole---for a quarter in wages- you would tell me to go eat monkey droppings...

    this is the thing we forget-that in reality -fossil fuel does about 50 times the work than any human could do..and for pennies!


    this is why we are dependant on oil. There is nothing that can replace it right now--so i guess when we complain about gas prices--maybe they should be 5 dollars a cup or maybe a cup should even be equivelent to the wages of a day of digging ?? its the success of oil that has also been the downfall of us...and the more efficient we are at pulling this stuff out of the ground --the faster we use it up too..
    im not opposed to higher prices IF it slows down the use of it.
    what kills us is cities and rural areas are designed so that we must spend huge amounts of energy just to get anywhere worthwhile. In fact, this is why fuel as cheap as it really is- is so expensive for us--because the amount of energy needed to get us to places...fast...is extreme.
    so this is why i am looking into steam--i like the hydrogen idea that was mentioned at the beginning..but that technology -any technology has a long way to go before it can store as much energy in a cup as oil can...
     
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  3. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Yup...you hit the nail on its head tug.

    A few years ago I read an article which stated that you could put one gallon of fuel in your car , drive across town for a cheeseburger or you could use that one gallon of fuel for industrial purposes and produce 350 dollars worth of work.

    This indicates that in an efficient market fuel should cost 350 dollars per gallon.
     
  4. Dave T
    Joined: Sep 2011
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    Dave T Senior Member

    Steam power

    If you're looking an alternative to burning gasoline I think the best solution is steam it's much easier and cheaper to convert any gasoline engine to steam than to alcohol or other fuels and you can use any fuel that will burn and boil water. Here is how to do it first I would select a small 4 cylinder pickup with an overhead cam engine. You need to re-gear the cam to run at the same rpm as the crankshaft this is fairly easy with a chain driven cam. Re-time the cam so the exhaust valve opens on the down stroke of the piston and the intake valve on the up stroke. Now the exhaust is the intake and the steam will be injected through the exhaust manifold steam will be exhausted through the intake and then through the radiator to recycle the water. The reason for using the exhaust valves as intake is that that they are always smaller than the intake valves and they will be operating inline with the steam pressure so the vale springs must be heavy enough to close the valve against steam pressure the smaller the valve the better. You must have an oilier to inject oil with the steam and an oil separator if you are going to reuse the water . The boiler would be placed in the bed of the pickup and you could pull a small trailer if you were using solid fuel. The advantages of a steam engines are with about 120# steam pressure they will produce about 3 times the torque of an equal size gasoline engine and they produce just as much power at 0 rpm as the do when running. You don't need any kind of clutch or transmission. I have converted a small lawn mower engine.

    More later if anyone is interested
    Dave T
     
  5. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    Dave --I work for "reliable steam" a company that makes v 4 steam engines in kits and casting...almost exaclty like you described--use of spool valves for FNR
    and a VW block and pistons can do this...40 hp at 750 rpms aprox...
    www.reliablesteam.com
     
  6. Dave T
    Joined: Sep 2011
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    Dave T Senior Member

    Steam engine

    Their are several companies that make steam engines and parts but they are expensive and usually too small. That is why I would convert an engine rather than bye one. Here is a picture of my converted lawn mower engine. I didn't re-gear the cam I welded a lobe onto the opposite side to open the valve every revolution and I didn't use the exhaust for intake because you can't use a heavy enough spring in the flat head engine. I designed my steam valve that injects steam through the spark plug hole and welded and machined the head to reduce the combustion chamber as much as possible the intake valve is used for exhaust. The engine develops 60# torque at 0 rpm on 120 psi. as a gas engine it was rated to develop 18# at 2200 rpm. I was building a water tube boiler when I decided to build a boat so the project is on hold for now.
     

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  7. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    Dave, that is AMAZING!! Coolest thing I've seen in a long time.

    How do you generate your steam? What are the efficiencies of doing this on a small scale? Do you need to burn a cord of wood to mow the lawn with the small engine?

    Would a turbine steam engine be better?

    How do you generate the steam? What is your boiler like?

    What safety devices do you have in place that will keep your boiler from bursting?

    Thanks for the post.
     
  8. Dave T
    Joined: Sep 2011
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    Dave T Senior Member

    Steam engine

    Catbuilder I haven't run the motor on steam yet only on air but the results will be the same. I was in the process of making a water tube boiler when I decided to build a boat the steam engine project is on hold till next winter when I can't use the boat. Their are basically three main types of boilers a fire tube boiler like is used in steam locomotives these are the most dangerous, a water tube boiler these are the easiest to build and much safer because only a small amount of water is in the tubes and they are contained within the fire box a leak will be contained and pressure will be released through the flu. The third type is a flash boiler where the tubes are heated and then water is injected and flashed into steam no water is actually contained in the tubes but that is much harder to control. I will have to insulate the cylinder walls by filling the fins with fiberglass insulation and wrapping them with aluminum so the motor will warm up quicker. A steam engine must be warmed up so that the steam doesn't condense in the cylinder and lock up the motor. I have most of the boiler parts made just have to get back to the project. I Have the engine now mounted on a frame running a car alternator the alternator runs 4 times the speed of motor. Under full load at 120 psi the motor runs 800 rpm the alternator puts out 40 amps and 15 volts. Whether a steam engine is practical or not depends on the application, the type cost and availability of the fuel used. If you want to see more of the things I have developed check out our website at www.thomas-superwheel.com if you haven't already check my threads A boat a motor and a trailer under Projects under way and 11 horse Briggs outboard conversion under Do it yourself marinising.

    Dave T
     
  9. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    Dave most of what you siad is true--but i respectfully disagree on the safety issues of a both the firetube and the watertube-and also about locomotive enignes...

    first- The reason firetubes were not safe back 100 years ago is the iron used to make the boilers were not as tough as todays precise metallergies. this caused explosions due to fatigue cycles etc. today we use precise instruments and safety kick off valves set at a rated psi and then add redundant valves so explosions dont occur--nowadays firetubes get overbuilt anyway-

    that i am aware of- there have been no firetube boiler explosions on record in the last 60 years in the marine environment--the only one i know of was a tractor (antique) that exploded because the operator did not follow guidelines...(im talking injuries not simple failures-since an industrial babcock blew a couple years ago...no injuries since it was at nightshift)
    secondly --a firetube was as common on marine systems if not more common. the reason being is that a firetube really is a true marine boiler--needing to be tended less and offering steady steam without fluctuations - because they hold a huge amount of water(energy) they are slow to lose steam, are very steady steamers, and can run longer without feeding fuel--this means less crew to operate the boiler since once there is steam you can go longer without feeding the boiler....
    water tube boilers on the other hand need to be tended constantly...they also generate more PSI and this does not mean they are safe at all--they do have two or three water drums and although they withstand more psi-they can still explode at about 3 x's the energy of a firetube-although rare.


    the power of 600 psi steam jet from a pipe burst can punch a hole through the cowling -and scalding can occur due to the release of huge amounts of steam in an enclosed area..--this is a myth that they are any safer...ity all depends on materials-water, state of maintenance-etc. cleaning a watertube is a real *****!

    monotube boilers are the third one--they are like huge on demand hot water systems...

    btw to note-- we now have the capability of getting 27% thermal efficiency from a steam boiler as opposed to the 6% at the turn on the century making steam the least exensive way to to operate a prime mover...since coal is 15 times less expensive than diesel. and wood is virtually free...(diesel is 36% thermally efficient but the costs are 15 times higher to run):)

    cool engine--let me know how it runs!!
    im going to use twin 10 hp tiny tech steam engines on my tug--100 ft lbs of torque ea. at 0 rpms at 150 psi- 500 rpm operating range.
     
  10. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    Thank you very much for the extra information, Dave. I hope to have the time someday to play around with steam engines. They seem so very interesting and I am a big fan of external combustion engines.

    If I were not making my boat for work, I'd probably be messing around with a steam engine myself.
     
  11. Dave T
    Joined: Sep 2011
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    Dave T Senior Member

    Steam power

    Tugboat I quite agree that a modern fire tube boiler built by a respectable licensed boiler company is more efficient and very safe but also very expensive. what I was talking about is a boiler built by an armature who knows just enough to be dangerous. Therefore I would go with a water tube enclosed in a heavy firebox also I would not run above 150 psi. Until somebody can come up with a cheap safe low maintenance way to produce steam or gasoline becomes too expensive or not available then I doubt that steam engines will be practical. It's easy to make a steam engine but it's a lot harder to make steam cheaply, safely and efficiently. But it's a lot of fun trying.

    Dave T
    "It's hard to stay focused when your objective is to drain the swamp and your you up to your *** in alligators.":)
     
  12. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    Dave --steam is truly the cheapest of the prime movers out there...since it runs on wood. or anything that burns. please explain how steam is harder to make cheaply?? maybe i misunderstood? i can buy enough fuel for $300.00..i.e. wood pellets-charcoal, coal, cordwood etc to run my boat for three days non stop- on steam..lets see a 2x 200 hp diesel do that! since thats about the equivelent in torque and hp of 2 x 10 hp's(500 rpms given the gearing advantage) steam engines. which can tick along at 5 knots on a few sticks of wood an hour...a small bag of briquettes will give at least two hours running and wood along the shorleine is free for me--so that makes my engines almost free running other than a cup or so of lubricating oil per day.


    at any rate fuel IS now almost at the point its too expensive to use for pleasure except by the rich and my guess is in a few years and it just wont be available or too pricey to run those huge diesels in powerboats. i think we are running out of oil sooner than we think...but maybe im wrong...:?:

    but we are past world peak oil production-its all downhill from here...

    as for safety--not sure what else can be done to make a boiler safer than to use overly thick plate and good welds??? thats all a boiler is-plate steel rolled into a cylinder and capped with tube sheets...

    there are no codes(unless you WANT them) here where i live-
    i will also point out to readers that your home hot water tank is rated for 300 psi in many cases...with the same kick-off valves. the plate thickness is around 1/8th inch thick i believe for those....:?:

    i do have plans for a small firetube. it is about 40 sq ft i think. 16 inch diameter. and the wall and tube sheets are 3/8th inch thick...thats overkill. but- ill use 1/2 inch thick pressure steel. i can buy and have that rolled- two full sheets of that new for 900.00- it will be 6 ft tall hold 100 gallons and have about 60-80 sq ft of heating area. able to steam my two engines.
    at 1/2 inch thick plate- thats still overkill for a 160 psi boiler. the tubes can be black water pipe or galvanized thick walled tube. the cost for my 25 hp boiler will be about 1200.00 -1500.00 compare that with a water tube...i doubt it would cost less to build a watertube...this is less than the engines.

    also- many amateurs do build their own boilers...some areas need code some dont...
    but if your smart about it--you can build on the cheap and safe. the nice thing about FT's is you dont stand there all day and tend the boiler--you can enjoy the wheelhouse more and in tricky situations you have a reserve of steam available..where it lacks is--if the boilers cold --and some storm comes up--you have to steam her up -which takes longer than a WTB...
     
  13. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    My feeling is that the petroleum market is definitely at a peak oil situation. Why? We are now "scraping the barrel" as it were, digging up oil in ways that made no economic sense at $80/bbl oil. The demand by a growing population, with new users coming online every day in developing countries is finishing up the oil at a good clip.
     
  14. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    agreed ....

    i dont think there can be any doubt- since everything we produce uses oil-from clothing to food to steel-to just about everything manmade...sad but true...i really hope im wrong about it too, but dont see how it cant be....

    say it aint so Joe...!?
     

  15. Dave T
    Joined: Sep 2011
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    Dave T Senior Member

    Steam power

    Tugboat I'm glad to see that somebody with more knowledge on steam boilers than me is interested. I am re-thinking my idea of maybe building a firetube instead. I am thinking of using a piece of 8" bore hydraulic tubing from a scrap cylinder I can get free or little cost at our local junkyard this should be way overkill to withstand the pressure . What size and wall thickness tube would you suggest and how many for the firetubes. Are you currently using steam power? What I meant by steam engines being too expensive to be really practical I was thinking for the average person if they had to buy an engine and boiler you could still bye a lot of gasoline for what they cost. Keep us informed of your progress and good luck. I do believe their is a future for steam power if some one can reduce the initial cost or we run out of oil.

    Dave T
     
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