input and help needed with this design

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by wayne nicol, Aug 8, 2011.

  1. wayne nicol
    Joined: Dec 2009
    Posts: 139
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    Location: Queen Charlotte islands, B.C.

    wayne nicol Senior Member

    hiya all
    i live here in the pacific north west, where we do lots of recreational salmon fishing,crabbing etc. and most people nowdays use simple aluminum power boats here.
    however i love to sail, but also understand the practicalities of power when it is needed. weather can come up here pretty quick( although we really watch the weather!!)
    so i searched everywhere for an existing design to meet my brief. not being able to find exactly what i was looking for- i contacted Paul Fisher from selway-fisher in the UK. i have bought his designs before and i really like them.
    so this was my brief:
    1. wood construction
    2.motor sailer
    3.tabernacle mounted rig, that is easy to handle single handed
    4.accommodation for a small family- 2 adults- 2 kids on the floor
    5.trailerable- without oversize permits
    6.cockpit to suit fishing
    7.enclosed wheelhouse
    8.i have always been partial to dory type designs

    so this is what paul came up with- and i really like it so far.
    1.swampscott type bilges
    2.st. pierre shearline
    3.seabright type transom- extra width- for the fishability, and to help some with the speed
    4.the rig will be easy to manage single handed- and with the brailing line- i can get it up and out of the way for fishing- without dropping the entire rig onto the deck.
    [​IMG]
    having since spoken to paul we have opted to lengthen it to 26'- weight should be around 1500kg. reasonable trailer weight/size compromise.

    i have come up with a few slight mods, nothing major
    1.a rail(enlarged wooden handrail style)to help increase the freeboard height in the cockpit- to make it a bit safer for fishing.
    2.soften and radius the stern line on the wheelhouse structure for both aesthetic and structural reasons.
    3.two 15hp( or whatever size is needed) inboards in wells- for the added safety of two motors, and for a single smaller motor for trolling(economical!)
    4.radius front side of cabin- extra portholes in sides
    5.tiller arm detachable for fishing- sweep arm up and over transom-keep transom uniform height. sometimes we can end up running for home in a rising following sea.
    anyway a few other small changes to suit my needs- and nothing major.
    HOWEVER
    i fully understand that this is a displacement hull- and they are better and safer in a rough sea-and speeds are lower- but is there anyway we can increase the speed some- we deal wth some very strong tidal currents here( 5-6kn running in and out the inlet here!!).
    1.would retractable planing wings ,port and s-board at the transom work?
    and being retractable they could be disabled for sailing etc.- i have seen fixed planing wings on a bartender that worked really well.
    2.would stiffening the bilges help some- and if so how would this affect general "seakindly-ness"( how would this current design - and /or changes feel while sitting idle fishing in big swells- would it be stiff and slappy- or very rolly etc etc)

    i also really like this design by atkins- and so i bought the plans- and i thought that scaled up( by a proper designer- of course!!!-i sure wish the atkins fella's were still around- absolute geniuses!!) and with the topsides altered to suit my needs that it would work- based on the fact that his hull is easily driven, and will currently do 20mph on 25hp@20mpg.
    now i know these figures will change as the hull is scaled up.
    but it is just an idea right now.

    [​IMG]

    sorry for the longwinded post- but i am really trying to cover all bases, so that it is easier for people to respond.
    thanks in advance!!
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Location: Flattop Islands

    Tad Boat Designer

    First I'll say the pictures are very small and dark so one can't tell much........which Atkin design is that?

    The motorsailer looks like a lake boat to me....too low sided/flatbottomed/high rigged and shallow to be good at sea....but the area of operation is not really clear....you mention an inlet? I would not want to cross the Strait of Georgia with two little kids in that boat....unless one could pick his weather very particularly......The sprit sail seems a bad solution, inefficient shape, high center of effort and weight without simple reefing options. Driven to higher speed under power this boat will stand on her tail and become unmanageable.

    You can have a faster powerboat that will sail after a fashion (this will require movable appendages) or you can have a slower powerboat that will sail better (in lighter winds). If you only want to sail in lots of wind the first option will be better.

    Another option.....

    fast motorsailor cartoon.jpg
     
  3. wayne nicol
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Queen Charlotte islands, B.C.

    wayne nicol Senior Member

    thanks for the response Tad.
    the atkin design is the "surprise"

    i live on the queen charlotte islands, off the west coast of canada, we do all of our fishing no further than 1 mile off shore, and do a lot of boating on the masset inlet, its a 25km by 15 km inlet, quite well protected- but the weather does get up in there too.

    so what rig would you reccomend- i was looking for something that i could get up and out of the way, to facilitate easy access to the fishing.- what would work better!?
    would a balanced lug be better?

    that was my concern with overpowering this craft- the designer said that with about 20 hp. she would do about 8knots.
    i have seen a bartender( dory type boat- planing double ender) that has the permanent planing tabs attached. and i read about the st pierre dory "beatrice" that they were going to add the planing tabs/fins to, as she was squatting down under high power- low volume in the stern.
    so hence my questions with regards to the retractable planing tabs/fins/platforms.
    the option for a flatter bottom was to facilitate beaching- which we do a lot here, whilst accessing remote areas.
    surely there have been lots of centerboard boats that have done well in rough conditions- i understand that a lot is dependant on the crew- but also that either a boat has the inherent ability or not!!
    and these dory type boats have surely proved themselves through time.

    paul fisher seems pretty confident that this boat will handle some weather- and that the stern will rise to following waves, the self bailing cockpit is what gives the cockpit a lower freeboard- hence my inclination to increase freeboard in the cockpit with a rail.

    i am terribly sorry about the pics, i will retake them-and edit the post.
    but the craft is to be 26' loa, with a beam of 8'
    draft 1'6" and 4'9"
    sail area 260 sq ft
    approx weight 3300 lbs
    ballast 1000 lbs
    self bailing cockpit depth 18" (26" above dwl)
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Surprise
    A 19' High-Speed V-Bottom Seabright Skiff Motorsailer
    By William & John Atkin

    A High-Speed Auxiliary Knockabout


    The plans of the 19-foot auxiliary which appear in these pages show a unique craft. Spread before us, after much thought and work, is a 19-foot overall, 18-foot waterline, 5-foot 10-inch beam, and 1-foot 3 1/4-inch draft V-bottom Seabright skiff. John and I put our heads together in the production of the design of Surprise. Primarily we have here a fast motorboat with hull characteristics designed for satisfactory sailing; not only for running and reaching, but also for windward work as well. One might well say, a lot of yesterday tucked out in the raiment of today. When built the little boat will perform exceptionally well under either sail or power.

    The sail and deck plan of this latest of the family, bearing the lucky number seven-eleven, shows a small and able open boat with a small cuddy, big cockpit, ample decks, usable bunks for two, inboard engine, fuel tank, and a knockabout sail plan of the most simple, and, incidentally, proved design. The sail area is 156 square feet; 119 square feet in the main, 27 square feet in the staysail (this is a staysail, not a jib, Shipmates).

    The cockpit is 7 feet 2 inches long by 4 feet 6 inches wide. There is a seat across the after end; an enginehouse a little abaft amidships and a hinged seat close by the side steering lever. The opposite side of the enginehouse is left clear as a walkway. The cockpit floor extends into the cuddy, the after end of the latter being open. In the cuddy there is an athwartship seat and two bunks, leaving room in the bows forward of the low bulkhead for ground tackle stowage. The headroom under the top beams is 4 feet, sitting-up room on the athwartship seat 3 feet 2 inches. If needed it would be a simple matter to run the tiller lines completely around the boat and place a second steering lever inside the cuddy. There is a good deal to be said for side lever steering, not least of which is its simplicity, economy of space, and lack of drag. It will be noticed that Surprise is fitted with the customary sailboat's tiller and that the steering lines are attached to and work from this well-tried implement. The centerboard trunk height is the same as that of the seat and bunks and about as much out of the way as possible.

    The lines of Surprise are designed for speeds under power up to 20 m.p.h.; it is therefore important to bear in mind the matter of weight of materials and equipment, especially that of the engine. I would not advise the installation of an engine weighing more than 270 to 290 pounds with its complete equipment. The weight of the following engines come within this range: Universal Fisherman, 8 h.p. at 1,200 r.p.m., 220 pounds; speed 14.5 m.p.h.; Nadler 8 h.p. two cylinder two cycle at 1,000 r.p.m., 210 pounds, speed 15.5 m.p.h.; Red Wing Meteor, 18 h.p. at 2,800 r.p.m., 225 pounds, speed 18.5 m.p.h.; Universal Atomic Four, 22 h.p. at 3,000 r.p.m., 286 pounds, speed 20 m.p.h. There are other engines which might be installed including several of the air-cooled type all of which will weigh something below the maximum figures mentioned.

    Plans for Surprise are $55
    Study Plans are available for $15
    (Refunded when full plans are purchased)
    Please Use Our PRINT-OUT ORDER FORM To Request Boat Plans

    BACK TO PLAN LIST
     
  4. philSweet
    Joined: May 2008
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    Location: Beaufort, SC and H'ville, NC

    philSweet Senior Member

    I like the design but I wouldn't call it a motorsailer. It is a sailboat with a kicker in a well. A 90/10 design not a 50/50. To get an outboard well design to work as a motorsailer is a substantial challenge. You need remote throttle and electric start and should have some generator capacity as well. At 15 hp or so it will weigh about 100 lbs if you can find an old twostoke, more if a fourstroke. You don't just lift this out and plop it on the deck to fiddle with it. You have to disconnect the fuel, electrical harness,battery cables, and control cables first, with out loosing little parts. I'd put the motor on the centerline and move the rudder off to one side. The motor should be able to be tilted up enough for you to see and deal with the prop. The cowling should be able to be removed and installed (I had a boat that you couldn't do this. I chopped the cowl so I could.) You need a 25" shaft to get this to work at all in a 26' boat, and that complicates the tilt geometry and makes for a bigger well than you might expect. Although you'll cringe at the cost,I think a little diesel is what's needed if a motorsailor is what you want.
     
  5. BATAAN
    Joined: Apr 2010
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    Location: USA

    BATAAN Senior Member

    Make the spritsail more rectangular and lose the boom, like these daily users who developed it well. The large pram shape works well for the job you are defining. These examples are from Danish waters and the 1890s-1920s. A single 10 hp outboard will give hull speed under most conditions on the dory you have presented.
    Sounds like you need more of a motor boat for safe family use in your challenging waters. Almost any power boat will accept a spritsail and gain advantage. Saw a guy put one on his Zodiac with a leeboard and he steered with the outboard. I'm not saying it's a great idea, just that it worked.
    Of the boats above "Maria" of Sondervig (RI.2.) is a motorized sailing pram that can handle very rough water.
     

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  6. BATAAN
    Joined: Apr 2010
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    Location: USA

    BATAAN Senior Member

    Of the two, the Atkin seems a better choice.
     
  7. wayne nicol
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Queen Charlotte islands, B.C.

    wayne nicol Senior Member

    hi philsweet
    thanks- and all valid points-
    i ALWAYS defer to greater experience-however if i explain my thought process- and you can see why i leant in certian ways- well, then you can guide and advise me accordingly.
    i was trying to achieve a 50/50 type boat- and paul fisher stated that the boat would top out at 8 kn.
    however what can i do to lean the boat more towards a 50/50 type boat, in your opinion- i certianally do not want a 90/10 type boat( although as my preferred mode of propulsion- i prefer sail- just that a true motor sailer would be more practical here- for me!).
    the average displacement hull commercial type fishing boat around here will do about 8kn as well.

    true i did initially consider the outboards as a cost issue- but also for the ease of management and handling- hence the two smaller o/b's in wells.
    i do like that an inboard puts the weight where it should be- but it does consume valuable space.- but maybe that is the way to go!!- its all about compromises i geuss- i could set it up so that it might double as seating in the wheelhouse.- maybe!!

    what do you think of the atkins surprise?

    my real concern out here in the PNW, is to maybe get the speed up a bit, so that i can buck a tide if i really need to.

    my single biggest constraint is that it HAS to be trailerable- so that restricts me to 8' wide, and at 26' that shoud equate to about 1500kg- a good trailering weight.- and a good workable size for me.

    what sail rig would you reccomend- i personally prefer the balanced lugs- but i do like the brailing aspect of the sprit rigs.

    well, thanks for your time and input already- much appreciated
    wayne.
     
  8. philSweet
    Joined: May 2008
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    Location: Beaufort, SC and H'ville, NC

    philSweet Senior Member

    Bataan

    Look at how low those loose footed sails are flown. I don't think it would work too well on the Fisher design that needs to clear the pilot house. Would work OK if a tall horse was used but I think that would get in the way of fishing. Also, the loose footed sprit rigs are brailed/scandalized differently than a boomed high sprit rig. Fisher's design looks to me like it will stay balanced over the board as it is scandalized for fishing or in heavy air. Would be better if there wasn't a pilot house though.
     
  9. wayne nicol
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Queen Charlotte islands, B.C.

    wayne nicol Senior Member

    sorry bataan
    missed your post while i was typing.
    i currently have a motor boat that i use for my fishing- and it works well- however i love to sail. no super-expert, but i do love it. and i really want to reduce costs a bit- a days fishing can cost 100$ in fuel for my boat, thats a lot of fish you have to catch.
    and i do like to gunkhole with my family- fair weather gunkholing that is.
    but i sure would like it to be a weatherly boat- that would be comfortable for coastal cruising.

    do you feel that the atkins "surprise" hull scaled up to say 26' with the topsides of my choice would be a better option( done by a proper boat designer/N.A. - of course!!)
    do you feel that this would be more weatherly, and more comfortable in the water.

    thanks for the input.
     
  10. wayne nicol
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Queen Charlotte islands, B.C.

    wayne nicol Senior Member

    i hear you phil,
    but a pilot house is so essential out here in the weather- lots of rain and squalls.
    something to think about though.
    please explain what a tall horse is?
    so if i read you right- you feel comfortable with the rig as it is.
    what do you feel about the balanced lugs

    and how do we chase this elusive 50/50 motor sailer
    considering that i have changed my mind to go with an inboard- and a feathering prop would make for better sailing than two great big gaping wells.
    thanks
     
  11. philSweet
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    Location: Beaufort, SC and H'ville, NC

    philSweet Senior Member

    Somewhere I lost track of the twin outboard concept. Thats a different kettle of fish. You still need 25" shafts though. Can you get that in an 8?
     
  12. philSweet
    Joined: May 2008
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    philSweet Senior Member

    I'm not communicating very well tonight. I meant to say that I think that boomless sprit rigs are a good thing if one doesn't have a pilot house to contend with. You can add sail area conveniently and safely.

    A horse is a traveller that the mainsheet tackle (or jib sheet tackle) is attached to so that it can be adjusted port and starboard. Often it is just a rod or pipe that is bent so that no control lines are needed, the tackle just self aligns where it should be.
     
  13. viking north
    Joined: Dec 2010
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    Location: Newfoundland & Nova Scotia

    viking north VINLAND

    dory style vessels

    Wayne-First hello to the Queen Charlottes-I have distant relatives there.Some years back I believe Wooden Boat did an article on a guy who commuted to and from there to the mainland in a St Pierre Power Dory. Personally i am not fond of the St. Pierre style-- much too much rocker in her bottom. I think the big Newfoundland traditional dory is a much more seaworthy vessel and having said that I'm not convnced or impressed that converting these amazing sea boats into any other form other than what they were designed for is wise or worth the effort. They were designed to be an open boat-no decking or cabins and as such they have a decent low cent. of gravity that is aided by a fairley sharp rise in volume when healed. I.E. good form stability. They are basically almost double ended and have alot of sheer, to take on those big Atlantic seas when launched from the shore--while at sea and surfing back upon the beach. From experience they do perform exceptionally well when powered with an inboard engine-- shaft-- prop combo or an outboard motor situated in a well, in both cases mounted close to midships.I have played around a bit sailing them but they are no great performers, as an emergency it'll get you home. (cat boat style, mast well forward with a loose footed sail, no jib.) The big problem with the dory style is it is very sensitive to top hamper having low inital stability and I would be very leary of any designs or modifications unless done so by a qualified person backed up by actual builds and sea time. The photo included is a 19ft. Newfoundland power dory(make and break gas engine) I converted to a cent. cockpit, sport fishing, cutty cabin motor sailer. I installed an 8 in. 300lb. full lead, keel and notice I kept the decking, cabin, low to reduce top hamper. Why not list your requirements and invite stock designs from the designers here on the forum--

    A yacht is not determined by the vessel but by the care and love of her owner--
     

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  14. BATAAN
    Joined: Apr 2010
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    BATAAN Senior Member

    Here's another small motor sailor suitable for trailering and beaches. A decked boat, she is quite seaworthy.
     

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  15. wayne nicol
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Queen Charlotte islands, B.C.

    wayne nicol Senior Member

    this is great, all the input is fantastic, conflicting and thought provoking, this is exactly what i need. i get one shot at this- and gotta make it right- and if i love the craft- well then i can live with anything, eh?- no compromise is too great!!!( thanks for the quote viking!!)


    PHIL: what was your take on the two outboard approach?- and i see what you say on the loose footed sails- but i think( sadly) that the wheelhouse has to say- wheelhouses always make a design like this look so blocky- and they are a pain in the butt- but i will be gratefull for it in all that inclement weather we get.
    i know i really want to sail this boat a great deal- but reality tells me, that if i have my family aboard- and the weather gets bad- i am sure that having the option of the power i will revert to the motors and run for home.

    we live right on the water- so i can really be selective as to when i go out and how much time i spend out there- tomorrow is another day- its not like i have 2 weeks leave and have to go out fishing every day.

    man i like those double enders bataan- when people say pram i think "optimus"- but these are sure pretty boats.

    i love the st pierre lines- but she doesnt motor at higher speeds that well- due to the small transom- thats why this boat was kindof a mix of concepts a bit- the bigger transom being one.
    thanks all
    keep the ideas and critique coming.
    wayne
     
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