Infusion Q&A

Discussion in 'Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building' started by jim lee, Dec 17, 2009.

  1. jonr
    Joined: Sep 2008
    Posts: 721
    Likes: 11, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 57
    Location: Great Lakes

    jonr Senior Member

    Can you mix it in a flexible container with no air (like a bag)? Or some sealed, filled to the top container with a mixer shaft that goes into it.
    Then the air doesn't get in in the first place.
     
  2. 13AL
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 44
    Likes: 1, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 23
    Location: Sunny California

    13AL Junior Member

    Damn!
     
  3. KnottyBuoyz
    Joined: Jul 2006
    Posts: 829
    Likes: 55, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 685
    Location: Iroquois, Ontario

    KnottyBuoyz Provocateur & Raconteur

  4. 13AL
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 44
    Likes: 1, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 23
    Location: Sunny California

    13AL Junior Member

    Very slick! Have you tried or purchased this, Rick?
     
  5. KnottyBuoyz
    Joined: Jul 2006
    Posts: 829
    Likes: 55, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 685
    Location: Iroquois, Ontario

    KnottyBuoyz Provocateur & Raconteur

    No. Don't think I will. I've been tinkering trying to figure out all the in's & out's of infusion on my own. I don't think I'll be infusing an entire hull at this point. If I ever did a tool like that would probably be well worth the investment to minimize the risk of a large infusion disaster such as a large hull.
     
  6. jim lee
    Joined: Feb 2007
    Posts: 368
    Likes: 20, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 247
    Location: Anacortes, WA

    jim lee Senior Member

    We just started small and worked our way up to hulls & decks. For our 26' boat we use 1/2" feed lines. We usually try to plumb them at waterlines. every 2 to 3 feet or so. Filling from the bottom and working our way to the top.

    Really though, start with the small bits. This gives you a good "feel" for how it works and by the time your doing hulls & decks, plumbing will probably no longer be an issue for you.

    -jim lee
     
  7. AndrewK
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 475
    Likes: 33, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 344
    Location: Australia

    AndrewK Senior Member

    Degassing resin

    jonr, I mix up to 5kg batches in 9L buckets and I dont like the idea of transferring this to another mixing container. The best container mixing system I could think of is like the paint pressure pot with the built in mixer. Put the resin bucket into the pot, evacuate the air and mix under vacuum. Dont know how long the seal around the mixer shaft would last and still hold full vacuum.
    Another alternative is to use a magnetic mixing puck in the bucket and an electric motor with a magnetic bar externally driving the puck.

    I think the ideal system would be inline metering and mixing, thats why the question to see if anyone has built such a system.
    I imagine there would be commercial systems available but have not searched the net as I assume I could not afford it.

    How many of you are bothering to degass your resin? if so what do you do?
     
  8. Herman
    Joined: Oct 2004
    Posts: 1,618
    Likes: 89, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 1240
    Location: The Netherlands

    Herman Senior Member

    Degassing can be an important step to reduce voids in the future laminate. Not only during mixing you introduce a lot of air, but already during production air is introduced into the resin. It is this air that needs to get out as well.

    For degassing I have a large pan with transparent lid. A bucket with resin is placed in the pan, the lid is put on, and a deep vacuum pump (2 stage rotary vane pump) degasses the resin.

    To help the resin get rid of the excess air, throw a scotchbrite in the resin (and make sure it sinks to the bottom). Another solution is to introduce air in the mixture (which sounds stupid) but the airbubbles will also pull the dissolved air out. (some friends did a subsidised project researching this). For simplicity, I would still opt for the scotchbrite option.

    There are mixing machines available, mostly air operated pumps, which draw the resin from their barrels, at a fixed ratio (by volume!!!), mixes it through a static mixer, and optionally degasses it (somewhat). It can also apply pressure to the outlet, to fill (semi) rigid moulds.
    www.composite-integration.co.uk can be checked for these machines. Ranging from 10.000 euro upwards. I have one, but it is set up for polyester now.
     
  9. AndrewK
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 475
    Likes: 33, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 344
    Location: Australia

    AndrewK Senior Member

    Degasing resin

    Thanks Herman, I am using a two stage pump and a chamber with a transparent lid.
    I have also read the mentioned article using air or scotchbrite to speed up the removal of dissolved gases. I have not tried the scotchbrite yet only compared the time it takes to degas a mix with a small amount of mixed in air and one with lots.
    The one with lots of air takes longer but as the mentioned article suggest does a better job in pulling out the dissolved gas.
    At this stage I think I will be happy just to pull out the mixed in air as long as I can do it fast enough. Thus the thinking that a metering and static mixing system would help in this regard.
    I do not require a high output system, at the moment I will look into the inexpensive manual piston and gear pumps. As well as trying the under vacuum mixing options I mentioned above.

    Cheers
    Andrew
     
  10. Herman
    Joined: Oct 2004
    Posts: 1,618
    Likes: 89, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 1240
    Location: The Netherlands

    Herman Senior Member

    These is a company "resix" which you should look up on the internet. They have nifty dosing machines as well, and have a static mixer option as well (although a bit steep in price to my liking)
     
  11. 13AL
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 44
    Likes: 1, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 23
    Location: Sunny California

    13AL Junior Member

    EnkaFusion Anyone? This looked like an alternate to flo lines. Anybody ever play around with this. http://www.colbond-usa.com
     
  12. KnottyBuoyz
    Joined: Jul 2006
    Posts: 829
    Likes: 55, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 685
    Location: Iroquois, Ontario

    KnottyBuoyz Provocateur & Raconteur

    I've got a sample from there a yr or so ago. Couldn't find a Cdn supplier. IIRC it was pretty expensive. I've pretty much given up experimenting and settled down with AirTech products. I have their green flow media and it's ok. I did get some red mesh from a guy a couple of years ago. Much larger mesh and worked great but haven't been able to find a source for that either. I'm sorta in infusion hell here trying to find decently priced consumables. Apparently Lowes has some shade cloth that works but I haven't been able to find any of that nearby either! *sigh*
     
  13. jim lee
    Joined: Feb 2007
    Posts: 368
    Likes: 20, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 247
    Location: Anacortes, WA

    jim lee Senior Member

    Tried it, didn't like it. We found that it ends up being a resin blob that gets really hot on the back surface of the part. The heat caused print through. We could see on the gelcoat side where the EnkaFuse was laying on the back side of the part.

    -jim lee
     
  14. 13AL
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 44
    Likes: 1, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 23
    Location: Sunny California

    13AL Junior Member

    Infusion Resins. At the ACMA show, everyone we asked said the same thing, Reichhold Hydrex. It has low exotherm, flows fast and non foaming. I don't recall the part number though. Anyone had any experiance with this product?
     

  15. AndrewK
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 475
    Likes: 33, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 344
    Location: Australia

    AndrewK Senior Member

    13AL, I had a quick look at the Reichold site, Hydrex 100HF is for infusion. It has a nice low viscosity of 175cps at 77'F, but the listed mechanical properties are for a post cure of 2hrs at 150'F + 2 hrs at 250'F.
    When selecting a resin first establish what mechanical properties you require, if you are going to post cure then what temperature can you achieve. Make sure you get mechanical data for this temperature, if not post curing then for long term ambient cure. I would look for a viscosity <200cps at 77'F (mPas at 25'C) and a gel time of 45 - 60minutes. Also look for a resin with the highest elongation.
    A friend of mine uses Huntsman AME600, I have only infused with epoxy resin.
     
Loading...
Similar Threads
  1. weldandglass
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    403
  2. weldandglass
    Replies:
    6
    Views:
    860
  3. Jay from WA
    Replies:
    12
    Views:
    1,290
  4. ahender
    Replies:
    8
    Views:
    761
  5. S17665
    Replies:
    4
    Views:
    936
  6. rwatson
    Replies:
    3
    Views:
    1,193
  7. ProBoat
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    1,047
  8. GreenFreak
    Replies:
    12
    Views:
    1,621
  9. ahender
    Replies:
    28
    Views:
    2,174
  10. bedfordd
    Replies:
    9
    Views:
    1,837
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.