Information/Advice on Deck Removal

Discussion in 'Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building' started by JimS, Oct 19, 2011.

  1. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    It's not uncommon to find areas where resin has been used to bond things to the deck cap, but also has dripped, run or sagged down and made contact with the hull shell. You have to assume there will be some damage when removing the deck cap. The trick is to identify stuck areas and get them unstuck with a minimum of damage.

    Key areas to look for stuck stuff will be at the bottom of lockers, bait wells and the like, where drains or other bits of hardware were marrying both pieces. Bedding, sealants and possably resin will often bridge these areas. Another common place for a deck cap to get "hung" is around tanks. These are often foamed in place, which makes an effective glue. Cut around the tank, through the deck cap if you must and patch it later during reassembly. The inside bottom and sides of the transom are another place you can expect some additional cussing. I usually just cut these areas, leaving a big flange like lip, so I have lots of bonding surface to put it back. Each boat is different and you have to problem solve on the fly. Lift until you find a spot that hangs up. Beat on it to see it it'll pop loose. If not, try localized force and pry at it, if not you'll probably have to break out the reciprocating saw. Most of the time it's a two man job, one hoisting with the other in the boat looking for places it's hanging up, beating on it with a big deadblow or wedging at it with a pry bar.
     
  2. JimS
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Location: Niceville, Fl

    JimS Junior Member

    Thanks for the response Par. I will keep after it and let you know how I make out, hopefully I remove a single piece of deck cap! Attached is what I have observed aft from where I can see, it's a big blob of sealant, hard as a rock and really stuck. Took my saws all to it with a pretty aggressive blade and it was hard stuff. Sure you have seen it before, I will be sure to get an assist on my next attempt. Think instead of hitting the front and back I will do as you mentioned before and pull up the front and keep working backward as I make progress. thanks for the help. sealant.jpg
     
  3. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Once you can get between the hull shell and deck cap, the job goes pretty easy. You can use a pry bar or a 2x4 to lever areas that seem more stuck then others. You can also identify places where sealants or resin have bonded the two pieces. A multi-tool, duct taped to a 2x4, can be used to cut through some of these areas, as you continue to apply upward force. Again each boat is different and once you do this, the next one will be a lot easy, with less damage, as you'll have learned many of the lessons to get it done on this boat.
     
  4. JimS
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Location: Niceville, Fl

    JimS Junior Member

    Victory!

    Well Par, I got the cap insert off. If you do this regularly, my hat's off top you. My Bud got called up and had to report to base so I was solo all day. Built a gantry out of 2x8's and 2x10's. Followed your instructions and worked from the bow making slow progress. Used a railroad bar to work on the really tough areas. Took about seven hours, but it's off. Can't say I didn't have any damage, look at the pics and see if it's repairable. They sure laid the adhesive on in the stern, not sure what they used, let me know what you think I should use when I reattach. Really complex sub deck design, still scratching my head as to how I going to get it right so the insert sits properly. I ordered five gallons of epoxy and 30 yards of 17 oz biaxial cloth to get me started. If you got any suggestions on making sure I get the height right as well as the position of the ski locker and fuel tank flanges like to hear you methods. Well thanks, feel like it was a huge victory today.

    Jim
     

    Attached Files:

  5. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    Dont you just love how boats are made !! New ,this what you pay good money For . Slip ,slop ,and splash crap here there and every where she'll be right !!
    Manufactures of small power boats want shooting for some of the crap they produce ! and the materials they use for the sake of saving a few bucks and again should last a year or so maybe as long as its out of its warranty period who cares !!!
    Using almost exactly the same materials but with careful planing and some fore thought you could have a quality boat that is more user friendly and easyer to maintain and could last lot longer .
    The use abuse and disguard mentality we all have is killing our planet and its future generations that are going to point the finger and ask why !! why did you waste so much ?? do you have the answers ?? .
    For people like you that are recycling i take my hat off just make sure you learn from what you have found hidden and tell others . Foatation foam is one of the really bad things that is indiscriminatly poured in here and there and when its new seems so wonderful but time has a way of stuffing mans creations !
    Had a friend with a brand new aluminium boat poured foam every where with the thought his boat wouldn sink . hes a sols fisher person and goes ling way off shore !!. A year later was wondering why the boat didnt perform as good as it used to when it was new . The guys in the outboard shop spent hours on the motor and even did a dyno test ,was perfect but just didnt have that get up and go like it used to . Then some one weighed the boat !! it was heavy but whats was the cause??
    Some one lifted a floor board and dig out a chunk of foam and was absolutely soaking wet !.So many hours were spent digging and chiseling and cleaning it all out .
    Foam needs to be up the sides of the hull and kept dry not under the floor !anyway of if you get pooped the boat will simply roll over upside down . Check with the U S Coast guard specs and see the tests they done over the years .
    GOOD LUCK AND KEEP POSTING PICTURES THEY ARE GOOD FOR PEOPLE TO SEE AND THINK ABOUT !!. :D:p:):p
     
  6. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Yep, they slop goo everywhere and you never know where it is until you start prying at it. You have some breaks in the obvious places, like the narrow portions of the side decks, etc. This isn't uncommon, but again with experience you'll be aware of this on the next one and you'll use a different technique. The last cap I removed I didn't break anything except near the base of the transom, where someone poured a bucket full of GetRot into holes in the top. It bonded the cap to the hull shell, where it pooled after running straight through the rotted transom core, to the bottom of the transom. Again, this isn't to be unexpected.

    Fortunately, everything can be repaired with a little goo and paint. The cap will be a good place to practice. Flip it over and grind out healthy tapers on the cracks and broken area edges. Grind about 1/2 way through with very generous tapers. Block, strap, wedge and brace the cap back into shape, then use some plastic packaging tape to seal all the cracks, seams, edges etc. on the pretty side (which should be upside down). This will prevent any goo from dripping through and making a mess on the pretty side.

    With the cap shored up and the seams and breaks taped, you can apply goo and reinforcement (filler and fabrics), which will repair the breaks. Make the repairs at least as thick as, what was once there (before you ground 1/2 of it away). Over lap the biax a few inches per layer and "tab" at least 6" in all directions around breaks. This ties the breaks back to the cap and returns the stiffness.

    With this done clean up with a disk grinder, particularly at the flange and points where it'll meet the hull shell. Flip the cap back to right side up and remove the tape over the cracks and breaks. It'll look pretty good, except you'll have some cosmetic issues to fix, but structurally it's sound. You can grind out the pretty side cracks and fill them now or wait until you're a little more comfortable with goo. This portion of the repair is just like auto body work, except you'll be using something other then Bondo (which has no place on a boat). Clean, fair and smooth the areas, seal, prime and paint. Sounds easy right? I'm not giving my address, because after all this, you be over here at 3 in the morning with a shotgun, for talking you into this adventure.

    I can't see what's really going on with your hull shell, but it looks like they built several things into it as a sub assembly, before the cap went on. Much of this looks shot, worn out and rotted, but you'll have to clean it up and dig it out to find out.

    The foam needs to just come out. You are not required by law to put it back, though many will try to convince you you should. I'm not one of those. An air chamber works just as well as an air chamber filled with foam. In fact, it works slightly better, because air is lighter then foam per cubic foot! The foam can be cut with a kitchen knife, but your other half will draw and quarter you (don't ask how I know), so use a hand saw. A reciprocating saw blade (a long one) with some duct tape wrapped around one end for comfort can be used to get around most stuff in your way. Just hack it out (the foam) and then you can scrape or sand the remaining little bits.

    It's likely your stringers and other support structures are compromised too, so have a look and start hacking away until you have a good idea what's going on.

    Good job, have a beer, pat yourself on the back. Now get back to work . . .
     
  7. JimS
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Location: Niceville, Fl

    JimS Junior Member

    Thanks for the great advise, you guys are a real life line. Ordering supplies so I have everything on hand when I need it, was planning on using 17oz biaxal fabric (no mat backing) on everything below the cap, good plan? Since I'm in there I'm just going to replace everything and have peace of mind I won't be back (al least on this boat). The little strip that runs around the top edge of the hull, anything better to use than the 1/2 inch ply they used? Also can it be a little wider, most of the cap screws missed and went below it. Like your take on foam, can save lots of $$ by not replacing it if it's futile to put it back. Did vilolate one of your instructions and had several beers last night to relieve the itch. I guess it really gets exciting when the grinding starts. I will get some pics of the demo, nothing today, Sunday is mandatory family bonding day around here by order of the SU. Thanks again

    Jim
     
  8. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    When working with 'glass, particularly when grinding, use hair spray or baby powder. Apply to the areas that will collect the little fibers, such as the hands, arms, especially the bend of the elbow, around the waste band area, around the neck, under your arms, etc. Both will seal the pores so the fibers can't get in and itch you. Lastly, rince off any fibers that get on you with cold water. The cold water will close your pores and the fibers will wash off. If you use warm, the pores will open and the fiber will get in. So, yep, take a cold shower (not luke warm, cold) and rinse good.

    You'll have to describe or post a picture of the plywood piece you've mentioned. In the areas where you've removed the foam, you have to make sure these areas are sealed up tight, so they'll work as buoyancy chambers. You may find it much easier to foam the fuel tank in place, though straps with well bonded hold downs works too.

    17 ouch biax is fine and will be much stronger then the previous laminate.
     
  9. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    I dont know how your deck structure is attacked to the hul but a common tool used to break hull deck joints is a wire Cheese Knife.

    The wire...7x19 perhaps 3mm is inserted thru a break in the joint then two men one inside one outside,, saw the wire along the joint. The same way you remove a bedded window
     
  10. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Take a look at the removed cap above Michael and then explain how it would be possible to pass a wire through from rail to rail, without sawing through the various protrusions and sub structures . . .
     
  11. JimS
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    JimS Junior Member

    Epoxy Use

    Quick question if I could as I plan for the road ahead to rebuilding my gal. No need to mention that there is lot's of discussion on epoxy versus poly for rebuilding boats. Question I have is can I lay multiple layers of cloth on top of each other when say tabbing in a stringer. If I determine I need three layers, can all three be done one after the other or do I need to wait the 24 hours before putting the next layer. Also, what is the longest period it can be left after flashing before having to sand the epoxy before adding another layer if you are delayed. (hours, days, etc) Got lots of folks saying use other thann epoxy for speed and layup time, however I am sold on epoxy for all the reasons you have pointed out may times. Thanks agains and I'll look for a response

    Jim
     
  12. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    You'll make a life goal out of it, if you do one layer of cloth at a time. Multiple layers are the way to go. How many at a time? Well it depends on the thickness of the layers going down. Both epoxy and the other resin systems will go through a few stages of the cure and in the initial stages, you can apply over the previous, without sanding. In fact, you can't sand as it'll just gum up your paper. As to when this occurs, it's temperature, humidity and formulation specific, so only a general reply is possible. What resin are you going to use?
     
  13. JimS
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Location: Niceville, Fl

    JimS Junior Member

    Par,

    Was going to use the medium epoxy from US Composites. Searched high and low around our little town and either off the scale in price or not available. If you have a better source or type I sure am interested. Weather has been very mild here this winter so I was going with a meduim hardner. Thanks for the info, my thoughts exactly it I had to do one layer at a time, tough to get done on just weekends

    Jim
     

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  14. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Do some research and understand what the term Epoxy " BLUSH'" means. I dont know us Comp epoxy ...some epoxies are very blush prone , some are not.

    When performing your bonds surface prep and an oil free surface are important. Give the boat a good wash, degrease before starting.

    Wire brushing the old laminate can be more effective than sanding.

    http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/Uploads/Ew21betterway.pdf

    A good source of general knowledge is EPOXY WORKS magazine..
     

  15. JimS
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Location: Niceville, Fl

    JimS Junior Member

    can I ask what brand or brands do you like to use?
     
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