Information/Advice on Deck Removal

Discussion in 'Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building' started by JimS, Oct 19, 2011.

  1. JimS
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Location: Niceville, Fl

    JimS Junior Member

    I'm new on this site so if this is the wrong location I do apologize. I have searched high and low for some information and have struck out. I have a deck boat (Four Winns 214) that I really enjoy, however the wood below the deck is going south and rot has set in. The deck is a fiberglass drop in insert and I'm looking for some information on the best way to remove the entire thing so I can access the stringers and replace them. All the information I can find involves cutting away the plywood deck to expose the stringers, my deck, seat bases and console are integrated into a single insert. Has anyone removed an insert like this before? How difficult, any advice to offer. Again, sorry if this post does not belong here, any help is gratly appreciated:confused:
     
  2. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
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    Location: Milwaukee, WI

    gonzo Senior Member

    I assume you are talking about the sole and not the deck. The deck may have to be removed to be able to take off the insert. Otherwise, you can look for a good line to cut and then fiberglass back together. It is a rather big job. When you remove the liner, it is really important that you block or somehow support the hull. It will be really flimsy and deform. If you fiberglass stringer to it with the hull not supported, it will be distorted and run badly.
     
  3. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    post pictures of the boat and what you got !!:D
     
  4. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    The 214 has a deck cap/hull liner all as a single laminate. This simplifies construction and makes an easier, faster build.

    Removing the deck cap is an involved project, that begins with stripping the boat of nearly every nut and bolt. The engine(s), electrical, hardware, literally everything is removed, then the screws removed from behind the extruded aluminum rub rail insert (which is probably PVC).

    Once the deck cap/hull shell flange fasteners are removed, you can try to lift off the deck cap. Naturally, it's going to fight back. It's probably bedded in polyurethane, with can have a mighty grip, but a hot knife often can quickly cut right through it. You'll need to figure out a way to grab and lift the deck cap alone. Often a 2x4 inside a hatch opening is enough, but sometimes you have to get creative, if not slightly destructive. Each boat is different in the way you can apply force to separate the two. If you can post some pictures, the obvious locations can be pointed out.

    In a lot of cases, especially with smaller boat like this, the deck cap bond is strong enough to lift the whole boat off the trailer. This is something that needs to be addressed too. I've used several methods including once filling the hull shell with water from a hose, to add enough weight to yank the cap off. Sometimes you can use wedges to separate the cap from the hull shell, other times a simple come-along from a tree to a bow cleat is all it takes.

    Each time it's a new approach to the same set of issues. Post some pictures and lets see what you got.
     
  5. JimS
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Location: Niceville, Fl

    JimS Junior Member

    More Information with Pictures

    Par/Gonzo,

    Thanks for the responses. Attached are some pictures of my Hangar Queen. I have removed many of the items you mentioned, engine is out, all the seats are out, gas tank and hatch cover are out. I will get the sink plumbing, rub rail, steering and electrical all removed as well as anything else bolted on to the cap.

    I have access to an overhead gantry with a 4K hoist and a 6K forklift. After seeing your response thought I could put a 2 x 4 in the ski locker to attach the hoist to. What about the cleats? Bad idea? You mentioned a hot knife, not familiar with that can you give me a little more info.

    After reading your post plan is to strap the boat to the trailer and use the forklift to hold down the trailer while we lift. Any idea on approx weight of the cap, have to store it somewhere and was wondering if four guys can get it off a trailer and on saw horses.

    One subject I see pop up often is supporting the shape of the hull when the cap is off and the stringers are removed. I was going to run three or four wide cargo straps around the hull after I get the cap off. Think that will work? It has to stay on the trailer so like to hear your view point on that.

    Last set of questions (I promise!) what do you use to reatach the cap, 5200, construction adhesive? I noticed the stringers I can see are plywood, lots of mention of DF in this forum, should I replace them with DF? Lastly, tabbing in the stringers, what do you recommend and how many overlapping layers? The more I read the more conflicting info I find on tabbing in stringers. Sorry for the many questions and I look forward to your response, I know the boat is rough, but I think she can be on the bay again with some assistance from the experts. Thanks again

    JimS
     

    Attached Files:

  6. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    The cap is probably in the several hundred pound range, maybe more, depending on what's attached, how water soaked the wood is, etc., your boat is in the 2,200 pound range empty.

    Hull shape is important and the best method is to build temporary shapes, that form a cradle, that the boat will sit in while being repaired. The easy way to do this is with a laser level and some plywood. With the boat level in both directions, take measurements of the athwart shapes, say in 4 places along her length. Cut these shapes from plywood and fit them to the trailer or wooden cradle. These will let the boat rest, well supported and will prevent distortions as you walk around inside fixing stuff. You'll also need a couple, maybe 3, rail to rail braces inside to prevent the hull from tweaking inboard. You can incorporate this into the external plywood supports, by arranging a few clamps or temporary screws to prevent the hull form moving away from molds.

    Construction adhesive (Liquid Nails, etc.) has no business on a boat. 3M 5200 is a good choice for re-bedding the hull shell to deck cap flange.

    You're going to break a few things as the deck cap separates from the hull. It happens, so live with it. I've only had a few come "clean" off. Usually the flange tears in some places or a bulkhead, transom, locker or some other piece is well bonded and tears too. Go slow and you'll identify these sports before you rip the bow off the boat (I've seen this happen from folks trying this). Go slow, and insure progress with braces and wedges. By this I mean once you get a gap at the flange, drive in a wedge so you can keep this progress as you reset things.

    A hot knife is literally as it sounds. I use a putty knife that I heat up with a MAPP gas (propane) torch. This cuts through bedding like butter. Just keep heating it as you go (it'll cool quickly). Yep, it'll smell like my ex-wife's underwear, while you're doing it, but it's effective and fast.

    You're going to have more questions (get over this too, it's the nature of the beast), so don't be shy . . .
     
  7. JimS
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Location: Niceville, Fl

    JimS Junior Member

    After Cap is off

    Par,

    Thanks help a lot, will the bracing need to be in place imediately or after I start pulling stringer out? Reason I ask is I will need to move the boat back to the lot where I keep it a few miles down the road to work on it, can't leave it where I'm pulling the cap. Is there any altenative to 5200, I attached a picture and where the arrowe is there is a hudge glob of adhesive, probaly 2 tubes of 5200, almot looks like foam could get real expensive if I will need thet much 5200. I will let you know how it goes as I progress. How about the tabbing and stringer material, any thoughts?

    JimS
     

    Attached Files:

  8. glasscraft
    Joined: Aug 2011
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    Location: Florida

    glasscraft New Member

    Sikaflex can be used in place of 5200. 5200 can be cheaper tho if you look for a good price.
     
  9. Saildude
    Joined: Jun 2011
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    Location: Seattle, Washington, USA

    Saildude Junior Member

    You want the bracing in before you start taking things out that hold the boat in shape - if you try and go back and put bracing in after the original pieces are out you will need to figure out how to get the boat back in the shape it was originally in and that will be hard to do. Not having your hull change shape in the first place is by far the best.
     
  10. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Yep, build the external supports and install before removing the cap. It can be attached to the trailer, so you can transport home.

    3M 5200 is the economical choice. I can get cartridges for about $11 bucks retail. You can use butyl rubber and several other products, but 3M 5200 will hold the best.

    As far as tabbing and stringers, it's difficult to tell without seeing what you have, so we'll cross that bridge when you get there. Generally, you can't screw up if you use too much tabbing, but you sure can if there's not enough. Stringer materials run the full gamut from your aunt Millie's mashed potatoes to fancy foams that cost $200 a sheet. It depends on how the loads are handled, in the laminate or the stringer (or both), which we'll have to wait and see about once you pop the puppy apart.
     
  11. JimS
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Location: Niceville, Fl

    JimS Junior Member

    Diagram of Support

    Posted a rough picture of what I believe you are refering to regarding hull support, see if I'm on track. Not quite sure how to support it on top util after I pull the cap off.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. JimS
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Location: Niceville, Fl

    JimS Junior Member

    A Better Picture to Work with

    I took a picture and added some bracing in four places. I can run a 2 x4 under the trailer to keep the bottom in place. Once I pull the cap off I can do the same for the top, let me know if I'm on the right track. The plywood woulb be contoured to hug the hull as Par had mentioned. Thanks again for all the great advice. Did a google and looks like as you mentioned Lowes has 5200 for $11.00 a tube.
     

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  13. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    You could probably get by with three, assuming the transom's outer skin remain intact. The first would go between the first and second line you show on that photo. The second about where the third line is and the last one about the aft end of the trailer wheels. This divides the hull into 4 roughly equal areas. This said, you can't go wrong with too many supports.

    To support the top edge of the hull shell, drive a few screws through the shell, just below the flange, into the braces. These will keep the hull from "pinching" inward, as you putter around inside 'er. You can do it the other way too, except 'glass doesn't hold screws very well.
     
  14. Saildude
    Joined: Jun 2011
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    Location: Seattle, Washington, USA

    Saildude Junior Member

    Not clear in the sketch - but you should also have supports under the keel in the middle of the boat - you can use wedges in pairs matched up in opposite directions and then fastened together to make sure the keel is supported - that will hold the bottom of the boat up when you are standing inside. Boatyards always put lots of blocks under the keel to hold the main weight of the vessel -
     

  15. JimS
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Location: Niceville, Fl

    JimS Junior Member

    Started Removing the Cap Insert

    It's been awhile, work and Holidays has kept me hopping. Started working on getting that cap insert removed, got the boat stripped down, ever thing removed, rub rail off and cap screws removed. Also took a electric hot knife and ran it along the seam cutting the 5200 where I could until the knife crapped out. Started at the Bow and had some good initial progress till I got to the middle and stern. I think there are large blobs of 5200 holding the insert to the hull. I was only using my engine hoist, I'm going to rig something to hang an overhead hoist from so I can get some height. Any advice/tips to get it to bust loose in the middle and stern, really stuck good. The forklift would have been ideal, however didn't work out due to work load. I also am having a bear of a time trying to find a place in the middle to lock on to, fuel tank locker is the only thing in that area, but only small lip is available and I'm afraid I'm going to snap the cap in half. Thanks again


    cap remove 2.jpg

    cap remove 4.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

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