Incredible "Secrets of Yacht Design" website located...

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by pkoken, Jan 6, 2005.

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  1. pkoken
    Joined: Mar 2003
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    pkoken S/V Samadhi V

    I have been blown away at the information I have discovered... I almost feel as if everything I have EVER LEARNED about the science of sailing and of sailing boat design is wrong!** Somebody contact NASA!

    Check this website out and tell me if you agree. Secrets of yacht design

    **Then I woke up from my nightmare
     
  2. pkoken
    Joined: Mar 2003
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    Location: Cruising Hawaii

    pkoken S/V Samadhi V

    Nuggets of wisdom...

    On MacGregor Yachts Quality

    On Hull Freeboard:

    On complete lunacy (Forget CE and CLR... just make stuff up!)

    MacGregor 26X is really a multihull in disguise:

    I don't what the hell this is:

    Smoking Crack right before writing things on aformentioned website:

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Franksadork

    Franksadork Guest

    Just our luck. The author of the site is available for book signings in the TP52 thread.
     
  4. pkoken
    Joined: Mar 2003
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    pkoken S/V Samadhi V

    I see! I am not surprised such a gifted person is also discussing an old, low performance "Traditional Sailboat Built To Fool The Masses" like the TP52.

    Luckily, due to the rating structure the slow, ponderous TP52s are adequately protected from the threat of an overtaking fleet of MacGregor 26Xs.

    After all, Multihull craft race in a different class altogether- right?
     
  5. D'ARTOIS
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    Location: The Netherlands

    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    The Mouse That Roared!!!!!!!

    Many, many years ago, Leonard Wibberley, wrote a book. A book called: "The Mouse That Roared."

    A very tiny country, hardly visible on the map of Europe, felt insulted by the US of A and did send an army consisting of a few archers and a loudmouth.

    The book is friendly, the loudmouth was friendly, and it all was no more than a hilarious event, (thanks to Peter Sellers) as it was meant to be.

    Don't take those things too serious, the poor guy has nor the means, nor the guts to buy himself a proper boat. Armed with Radar, Autopilot, 50 hp Outboard, GPS and yhe inventory of the USS Iowa he storms the racingfields; that to the majority of the international sailing community is no more than a minor holiday event.

    There are numerous sailors, singlehanders, crossing the sealanes of the world, no loudmouthes, who go their own way not disturbed by maintaining the longest and most useless post in internet history.

    Let's consider other things.
     
  6. Wynand N
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Location: South Africa

    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    You have my vote on this one.

    And still it goes on........................
     
  7. mighetto
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    mighetto New Member

    Brother, I call you brother, for you have been baptized by finding the Secrets of Yacht design and you appear to be from the town in which I was raised. The town of Tubby, of 18 foot Potters that sail accross the Pacific.

    The URL above has been rigorously reviewed by sailnet.net (t shirts now available) by sailing anarchy (burgees now available) and by the MacGregor yacht's web sites. It is as accurate as such review can make possible. (Highly accurate)

    It has not been reviewed by boatdesign.net.

    Professional designers of boats are not unlike professional designers of churches. Both groups of designers are expected by their customers to be well researched in the history of the design of boats or churches.

    However both groups have respectively formed circles where they hold each others hands. The circles are closed. Even to lessons from history.

    We outside of the circle are anarchists. Amatures to be marginalized. Especially when we ask why. Like why water ballast (a form of ballast used through out the history of sailing) is not used more frequently in sail boat design or why should a boat sink when swamped. Or if canters were so great why were they not used until ten or so years ago?

    Those of the circle value being part of that circle. They fear free thought and expression because it may result in exclusion, excommunication from a club, a politically-correct party, that is closed to all but those who think like they do. To all that think other than monohull or lead on a long fin.

    We outsiders, we anarchists, have a new and powerful voice. The voice of the Internet. It is that voice which has brought you an others like you AT LAST to this forum.

    The Church of FOYD is now open (Future of Yacht Design). Huzzah Hazzah, There is much work to do. May I suggest reading the TP52 thread and the special issue of Sail on the future of sailboat design. (pay attention to the advertisements) Be prepared to be saved.

    The Mac26x has the most widely accepted and scrutinized movable ballast system in the world. Its hull shape is the most widely accepted shape for those that make a living from the sea. The work boat hull form is far from slow. To avoid hazards (like pirates) and to get to market in a timely fashion they just had to be and are fast under sail.

    I encourage those who are in the circle and wonder why to get a new email address and join in the discussions. We value FREEDOM and can be free to speak our minds here. The URL mentioned will be updated. There is a lot more.

    Oh: Seattle Boat Show Saturday.
     
  8. pkoken
    Joined: Mar 2003
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    pkoken S/V Samadhi V

    Huh?

    I have read the opinions of other dedicated Sailors, Yachtsmen and various Yacht Club bar seat warmers of your site on SailingAnarchy as well as in this forum and a nameless multihull community... I would state that the vast (vast vast vast) majority of responders to these various threads do not agree with self described "Accuracy" of your "Review" of the Mac26X. Perhaps we are all mind numbed sailing robots... but I digress~

    Perhaps it is the majority opinion voiced within the TP52 and other threads that could be regarded as "Highly Accurate".

    As for hull forms designed and proven through the ages, I question the logic of this as nobody used a 50hp outboard to outrun "pirates" in golden age of sail... Nevertheless I am struck by the notion that a modern yacht should in some resemble a sailing ship yore~ Hemp & Tar for your rigging sir?
     
  9. mighetto
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    mighetto New Member

    Oh we are going to have a good time! First the majority opinions (the opinion of the market place and the GP RWP, not to mention the mathematicians at US Sailing and SNAME) have spoken on the TP52s. These were tagged correctly as red herrings for ocean racing from day one - which was either 4 or 7 years ago, depending on how much of a failure in boat design you care to paint them. Their only hope of a margin of success is on the buoy race courses and then not on the Olympic style ones - only on the slow windward leeward beginner courses. Only those closed in a circle similar to a wagon train under attach by heathons would say otherwise today. (Look I am playing devil's advocate here - do not be inhibited, blast back if you care to - just keep it clean please because I do not post what I do not believe.)

    And they would say they in the closed circle are the smart ones!. There be none dumber than the dead and designers stuck on TP52s be dead. Be they the lucky ones because they can not read my dripple.:) Lets keep this fun - note smily.

    The connection of the TP52s to the Mac26x was well documented at the start of the TP52 thread. Perhaps folks find revisting the last presidential election productive. I do not. When it is over it is over. The TP52s are over. No reputable designer - especially Farr - is sticking with them.

    However, one of the requirements for a TP52 is that the motor be an inboard. Perhaps we need to discuss the Why of that. Why not an outboard? There is no currently valid explanation. In fact there are multiple negatories. I would not go as far as to say you are better off without.

    [​IMG]

    First consider the maintenance of an inboard vs outboard, next consider the added space below decks, the prop being out of the water while sailing, the ease of upgrade and replacement. Then add in the fact that most ocean crossing vessels carry propane which is just as volatile as gas if not more so and that gas is more available world wide than diesel. You will find gas everywhere. You may find none if the fishing fleet beats you to the supply. Do you consider it safe to sail with out fuel for the auxiliary? Probably not. You wait for the next delivery. Not if running a gas outboard. You cut a deal with any auto owner. Gas is more environmentally friendly. That is important. These are the facts of modern cruising under sail. Designers need to acknowledge them.

    nameless multihull community? I have not posted on a multihull site. Regarding my "Review" of the Mac26X, it is not mine. It is my cruising log. I put it up for public review to get specific examples of what is wrong with my observations and research. Please get specific. What is incorrect?

    Let me give you some Zen from the Church of FOYD before closing tonight. The closed minded get that way because they want to belong. They want to belong to a group so badly that they train themselfs to think incorrectly so they might not accidently get caught speeking truth that may brand them a heretic. Captains of sailing vessels can not be associated with groop think. They must decide and judge for themselves. It is their responsibility to do so. By Right, By Tradition, By Law.

    By By. Tune in tomorrow. The Church of FOYD is now closed.

    Murrelet,
    1999 Mac26x
    Olympia Wa
    Sail 79020
     
  10. mistral
    Joined: Jul 2004
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    mistral Senior Member

    of course there are a LOT of good reasons to have inboard engine, but i won't do a mistake trying to explain you these obvious facts. You're just trying to change this thread into a kind of Frankestein made up with rotten and stinky pieces of YOUR dead thread "TP52".
    So by bye Frankie-Mighetto-stain , i'm leaving, have a good time with the smell of your stinking old arguments

    bye bye
    Mistral
     
  11. mighetto
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    mighetto New Member

    Mistral, I suppose you know that in the film Perfect Storm, the sailors aboard the boat named Mistral abandoned the vessel as you are abandoning any thread that involves ideas you have been trained to reject without analysis.

    In real life the sailing ship portrayed as the Mistral in the film sailed the perfect storm crewless and eventually made a soft grounding. She survived and was recovered intack as will the ideas that are presented through the Church of FOYD, which is now open. The Church has a track record of success and is powerful owing to that track record. As always, the timid may contact me at mighetto@eskimo.com. They shall inherent the sea.

    Let us start the day by stating that experience is not enough. You learn from evaluating your work. There is no learning, unless you understand what you are doing, why you are doing it, and whether or not it is helpful, and why.

    Mistral and folks like Mistral will always find it is easy to dismiss things that sound wacky. But does the above sound wacky? Mistral may have 30 years of experience but that probably really is 1 year of experience 30 times and you know what, without the evaluation I don't think that first year was all that useful. I could be all wet on Mistral. He/She will always be welcome. Let us not denigh Mistral fellowship for we are all God's creatures. I told you this was going to be fun. Tell me that wasn't fun :) May Mistral find a sailor's wit and respond. :D

    Now for new business.

    The first observation is that the major advertisor for the Sail Special Issue The Future of Sailing Is fordvehicles.com. Specifically the Integrated Trailer Brake Controller technology.

    Couple this with Volvo and BMW's interest in sailing and you can conclude that transportability is a huge requirement for the future of yacht design. It is.

    Not only is the value of the vessel preserved when it is transported rather than sailed to a destination but the cost of crew durring and after the voyage (should a crew member sustain an injury) is avoided. Furthermore, with modern reporting there is usually enough time to move a transportable boat from port to the relative safety of the hard tiedowns or even 100 miles inland. The future is bright for boats that can be transported. They will still be sailed across oceans - but only for racing purposes.

    The notion that there can be comfort in an ocean crossing is just a wacky one. It is like saying there is comfort in prison. You want to do the time fast. You, or at least your significant other, get comfort from shore based accomodations which means the faster you get there the more comfortable. Does anyone really disagree? In an age where shore accomodations did not exist it made sence to design boats with creature comforts similar to land based homes. But we do not live in that age. Speed now equals comfort. Transportability is a requirement in a modern boat design. But of course there is no absolute requirement for it. Those who do not wish to master a sailing craft can alway charter different craft at different locations. It takes half a life time to truly master a single sailing craft, however. Given this, a boat that is not transportable (typically a wide design or a weakly constructed vessel) represents a big compromise that should be reflected in its price.
     
  12. mistral
    Joined: Jul 2004
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    mistral Senior Member

    come on , Frankie don' waste a such huge amount of words for me; in Italy we say "it ain't a worse deaf than the one who don't want to listen"; you have CLEARLY demonstrate that you're not interested in any opinion or rational explanation; of course you reject experience's role as you have NONE; i'm not deeply experienced, but i've learned enough about its importance, specially in sea-involving issues. And i have enough humility to study past experiences, ask people professionally involved in boats AND LISTEN THEM, kick my *** around in the shipyards to see how REAL THINGS take place, TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHY 90% of people MAKE THINGS IN A GIVEN WAY, make calculations about all this; after doing all his, just after, i elaborate an opinion; I may agree or not with widespread solutions, i may chose different solutions, i may find traditional issues stupid, but i KNOW them; that is the difference between you and me, you know nothing and you keep on preaching!!!!!!
    I've just wasted five minutes of my life and a a decent amount of words, i hope this is enough to satisfy your ego.
    By the way, you spent half million word talking 'bout engine on a race boat.....just two words: WHO CARES???? engine is just for mooring or get back to harbour on those boats, they're sailboat NOT A MAC26

    Mistral
     
  13. mighetto
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    mighetto New Member

    Thanks for the email. No this is not me

    http://www.funpic.hu/swf/numanuma.html

    WoW nonetheless. Get the man on Lano. I believe the stater of this thread is or was a Catalina owner as well as a biker. A powerful force this one. Aha-He.
    Aha-Ha.

    Old business. Catalina Yachts has a powerful advertisement in "The World's Leading Sailing Magazine" Sail Special Issue The Future of Sailing. It is the Morgan 440 that a friend has asked me to look at tomorrow. Hope she is there. We will be floating about from 10 am on at the Seattle boat show. Anyway the power in the advertisement is that I believe the following is accurate.

    "Listen to (Catalina) boat owners and they will tell you more about building boats than a room full of naval architects."

    You can say the same thing about a MacGregor Yacht owner. In fact, is this a new Catalina slogan because it sounds like a mighetto-ism. Catalina and Macgregor Yacht owners have been taught to think differently. Independently. Let me try to explain.

    In the US, the population understands teachers but they do not understand intelectuals. If you value questions, self-reflection, the open expression of ideas, and trying to figure out why things are the way they are then you are in intelectual. That is the mark of the intelectual.

    If you do not then you might be a teacher. The expression those that can do, those that can't teach and those that can't teach teach owner driver is a migheto-ism.

    We of the Church of FOYD intend this thread to be the best single analysis of the transition of Americans to modern sailing, otherwise known as sailing anarchy, that we know of. We do not intend to teach. Please feel free to comment on or off list. Again - loved the URL.
     
  14. mighetto
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    mighetto New Member

    Mistral,

    come on , Frankie don' waste a such huge amount of words for me; in Italy we say "it ain't a worse deaf than the one who don't want to listen";

    To which I reply, you can not listen to a fellow who refuses to speak. Thanks for the post.

    you have CLEARLY demonstrate that you're not interested in any opinion or rational explanation; of course you reject experience's role as you have NONE; I'm not deeply experienced, but I've learned enough about its importance, specially in sea-involving issues. And i have enough humility to study past experiences, ask people professionally involved in boats AND LISTEN THEM, kick my *** around in the shipyards to see how REAL THINGS take place, TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHY 90% of people MAKE THINGS IN A GIVEN WAY, make calculations about all this; after doing all his, just after, i elaborate an opinion; I may agree or not with widespread solutions, i may chose different solutions, i may find traditional issues stupid, but i KNOW them;

    You are an intellectual then. By the way, it is considered bad to use the word clearly in a sentence. To you it is clear, to others it may not be. Usually there is never clearity. We must filter everthing.

    that is the difference between you and me, you know nothing and you keep on preaching!!!!!!

    I will get on the box and preach if that is needed. It is preaching to the choir that I object to. You Europeans have no idea what a repressive society those of us who live in the USA tolerate. You are so lucky.

    I've just wasted five minutes of my life and a a decent amount of words, i hope this is enough to satisfy your ego.

    Oh yea, I have one. A swelled head that gets bigger and bigger until it feels like it is going to explode with I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG. But then -- must there be a winner and a loser in open discussion? The world is far from black an white to me. If I come off that way knock me down. It is not on purpose. Again the sailing sport is safer than freeway driving. Those who love one boat love all of them. Your five minutes have done good. They are not wasted. I certainly would hire an NA if I were building a boat. But I wouldn't blindly accept his/her teachings.

    By the way, you spent half million word talking 'bout engine on a race
    boat.....just two words: WHO CARES???? engine is just for mooring or get back to harbour on those boats, they're sailboat NOT A MAC26


    Them's fighting words and you know it. But I will let them go for the most part and listen. Let me try this. The engine is auxiliary on a true sailboat and that especially includes the Mac26x. You just can not carry enough fuel on a Mac26x to claim otherwise. But it is the primary safety feature. See this and you see the future of yacht design.

    There is no sacrid principle that makes a good sailboat a poor motor yacht. Now take a look at the PowerSail 50 http://www.powersail.co.nz/. Yachts that have efficient hydro-dynamically designed hulls for true race boat sailing performance plus the remarkable capability of motoring under power at 18 knots. Tell me this isn't the future of yacht design and that it doesn't look like a larger Mac26x. Sail includes her on page 102 of its Future of Sailing Special edition. Motoring already dominates every successful new design sailboat introduction. This is reality. There is no going backwards on this. I am just the messenger here.

    Now let me add that the intention of the motor on the Mac26x goes beyond motoring. The motor was intended for moving ballast on and off the vessel and likely to reach plane under sail when conditions otherwise would prevent it. It is also solid ballast. Remove the motor and kill sailing performance.
     

  15. water addict
    Joined: Jun 2004
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    water addict Naval Architect

    Go Frankie!! Flame more nonesense! Yes! Yes! Yes!!!!!!! AAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
     
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