Improving handling in following seas

Discussion in 'Powerboats' started by journey, Dec 20, 2009.

  1. journey
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Victoria

    journey Journey

    Commuter Boats: I really appreciate your thoughts. You raise some issues that I would like to explore. There is another 2670 for sale with a 1995 4cyl Volvo engine. From what you are saying, this would help the center of gravity a little.
    Having a sailing background, I appreciate the value of a heavy keel, what would you suggest? How could it be attached without perforating the hull with keel bolts.
    Something like a 2" x 3" X 18' steel would provide 350 lbs of ballast and make a keel/skeg at the same time.
    This group provides a great diversity of ideas that I really appreciate.

    Tim
     
  2. Commuter Boats
    Joined: Oct 2006
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    Location: Southeast Alaska

    Commuter Boats Commuter Boats

    I don't have the background to accurately predict the correct amount of ballast or were longitudinally it should be placed but my plan for my clients boat with to attached about 300 pounds centered aft of amidship. My method of attachment would be to simply fiberglass it to the shallow keel that's there in such a way to us to be easily removable ( grind off the fiber glass), would provide grounding protection, and there would be no holes in the boat. In repairing boats is not uncommon to see a boat with a bolted on steel shoe ground at speed and have the shoe stop and the boat continue on leaving a hole at every fastener.
    You suggest a 2"x 3" piece of steel which would add little to the depth of the keel and I suspect that the boat would benefit by more directional stability that is slightly deeper keel could provide.
    Thinking a little outside the box, you might attach a hollow steel box approximately 4 in square in the manner suggested above, nicely faired in at the forward end and open at the aft in such a way that rebar could be the loaded into it and the boat trialed. When you are comfortable with the amount and location of the ballast it could be locked in place with concrete or something of that nature and the and of the box could be closed.
     
  3. mark775

    mark775 Guest

    They definately look at the single vs dual thing from a different perspective in SA. They used to have a type of little boat there used for albies and they required twins but that it be able to plane on one. I have spent about half of my life on the ocean, never had to be towed in, and am not sure that I would want the pain in the *** and lack of engine room space of twins.

    Sorry to tangent the thread but I think there is something to be learned here. I cannot recount the times that I have heard/felt a "bonk" over the years and with just a 40' boat, if I had twins, the log would have suredly hit one of the props. With a semi-displacement hull (fair amount of "V" forward) the logs roll harmlessly by and pop out behind the boat. Piece of poly, same way. My GRP boat is set up a little different than most sportboats, with a full length keel deeper than the prop and a steel shoe, I can grope around in shallows and routinely bump bottom, drop off people on the beach, etc.. I can run through the thickest kelp forest imaginable at low slack tide (it sometimes doesn't even look like there is water there) and the keel pushes it down and doesn't even disturb the kelp and hardly slows me down (I try to run across the kelp).

    I have seen hundreds, maybe thousands, of twin engine boats whack a log and wallow on in with a ruined day. Where it gets interesting is when they get a line in the wheel...somehow, some way, it manages to find the other wheel as well. Several times, that I know, line has gotten in both wheels, shut down the boat, ripped the struts out of the boat and sunk. Once, that I know, a transmission EXPLODED when a line got in both wheel and stopped the shafts abruptly. Once, that I know a boat got an anchor line in his wheels with the anchor stuck in rocks and a two knot roiling current - lucky to be alive. The most pleasant space on my boat is the engine room. I spend a lot of time down there putzing around and getting away from annoying passengers. How many twin engine 40' boats can offer this? What do you think their work space looks like compared to mine? Even with a good sized chunk of iron down there, I can move around, relax, work.

    DSCN0407.JPG DSCN0418.JPG Picture 100.jpg

    For these reasons, I contend that a single engine boat is MORE reliable than a twin. You can talk about diving and cutting the line out, but you are, by necessity, in calm water already if you are sending a diver over. Twin engine boats, in general, are for people that don't maintain their stuff or buy into the "get home" argument. I will add this, if I decided that I wanted twins, they would be absolutely as close together as possible, to get deeper, less ventilating water, and to have a better chance of having the log slide by harmlessly. Even with a four foot draft, there is mean **** that ventilates my prop and I wish for more depth and solid water. Jets (beyond a specific purpose, picking up swimmers, working with nets, etc.), surface drives, short shaft outboards, etc. are for calm water.

    The little Bayliner at hand, this thing will do better with more weight AFT and a long shaft outboard or, better yet, an inboard, like I believe it to be designed. More weight forward, like some believe, is NOT the answer (IMHO). Why don't you try strapping four thirty gallon barrels of water on their sides in the back and see if you like it (if not, open the caps and let the water drain). If that works, you'll know what to do. I wouldn't have anything to do with a bracket back there. It's a small enuf boat, already, and a bracket and outboard effectively block off the back of the boat to use. I also don't think it will help your situation at all and may hurt. You can pucky the steel shoe on if you want, but I'll tell ya', if I bolted it on, no hit is pulling it off and leaving holes and having steel feels good down there.
     
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  4. Zappi
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Location: Puget Sound

    Zappi Senior Member

    It seems to me these boats are worth improving on if someone desires a pocket cruiser. Their CG may seem high since the pilothouse is rised but the cabin is quite low in the boat. Typical cruising on that boat (IMHO) will be husband wife type cruising. Say... The San Juans? I've seen them as cheap as 2k not running but in good shape here in th Puget Sound area. I know of one on a trailer that could be had for less thn 4 on a nice trailer.
    Yank the outdrive. Forget the outboard and ideally install a small diesel as a true inboard. For tracking purposes... Oversize the rudder keeping it nearly inline (horizontally) with the bottom of the keel. Depending on tankage capacities and placement add lead ingots as needed. Forget about too much weight to a certain extent sinced this will be a 10 knot max boat anyways.
     
  5. mark775

    mark775 Guest

    I have absolutely no need for a boat like these but $4,000 is a steal! There's no problem like a very low overhead in the engine space or anything? It'd be great for protected waters then.
     
  6. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Yepp, it is!
    But boaters do´nt get it. Not knowing that displacement and Newtonmeter is the question, they are focussed on horses. Knowing that the scrap they buy can fail, they need some "coming home" propulsion.
    But what is the value of 1000 horses in the basement when one donkey is at the wheel?

    Regards
    Richard
     
  7. Zappi
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Zappi Senior Member

    Mark, as I think about it the layout may not work with an inboard. You have about 8 ft of raised deck at the stern. Its definitely tall enough for a diesel but IS 8 ft enough room for the motor, trans and shaft???
    As far as the 4k boat. It's in good but not great shape. No Alaskan bulkhead, looks to be good VP 280 OD and a frozen VP 140. The trailer looks great but cant remember if its galvanized.
     
  8. Commuter Boats
    Joined: Oct 2006
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    Commuter Boats Commuter Boats

    I don't remember the deck on those anywhere near 8 feet, maybe 6, but you might be able to fit a V drive.
     
  9. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Hands off of V drive gear! If you want a troublefree life.
     
  10. Easy Rider
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    Easy Rider Senior Member

    Journey,
    Getting back to the original question a hull form modification that would deliver is pointed at both ends, just not so much in the stern. About a 45 degree pointed transom would give your boat a 30' OAL on the C/L and 26' at max beam. I/O would require a flat portion on center just wide enough to accept the I/O. You would essentially have a planing double ender. You would have a much longer "purchase" on the water greatly increasing pitch stability. But your original concern about following seas would probably be history.

    Easy Rider
     
  11. Roy23
    Joined: Jan 2010
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    Roy23 Junior Member

    Not to hijack the post, but how does a Trojan F26 hardtop handle seas?
     
  12. Roy23
    Joined: Jan 2010
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    Roy23 Junior Member

    here is the boat Journey is considering.. http://www.usedvictoria.com/classified-ad/10501047 . While it looks in good shape, I would not get one so underpowered. Sure, you can conserve fuel at a leisurely cruise, but there will come a time when you will need all the HP of the 4 cylinder inboard /outboard, such as getting caught out in crappy weather, or if an emergency arose. Not to mention the loss of ballast, designed in by the mfr. Most importantly, in my humble opinion (I owned one too), Bayliners are not very well built and do not stand up to years of use the way other yacht builders boats do. That is a lot of money for that boat also, considering the buyers market we are in. I suggest you Google or craigslist Chris craft, trojan, sea ray, etc. For 16 k there are a lot of much bigger or nicer boats out there.take a look at these....http://grandrapids.craigslist.org/boa/1528997397.html http://houston.craigslist.org/boa/1522665960.html http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/boa/1529778428.html http://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/boa/1527517046.html
     
  13. Roy23
    Joined: Jan 2010
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    Roy23 Junior Member

    Journey, check out pics of my boat on the ANY Trojan owners Thread
     
  14. Zappi
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Zappi Senior Member

    Roy, F26's will handle fairly well in seas. I wouldn't consider them a semidisplacement boat though. Having been on one as a committee boat for our yacht club... We had her out in some heavy stuff as far as Puget Sound goes. It did just fine with minimal scare. Comparing the Explorer to the F26 is far different in my opinion.
     

  15. journey
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Victoria

    journey Journey

    Thank you for all the feedback. One reason I am considering the bayliner 2670 is that I need something trailerable. This seems to be as big a boat as I could deal with towing.
    My wife and I went and looked at the boat today and it is very clean and well maintained. The bilge is completely dry and all the systems work. I saw no indication of stress cracking in the jell coat or water damage around the windows.
    There are a few problems. The outboard bracket is made of pressure treated 2 x 10. The transom has been cut out so they enter the hull and are bolted to the hull sides on the inside. Seems to work but not very durable or professional.
    The top speed seems to be about 7 knots with a reasonable cruise at 5.5. I am not looking for a fast boat, but this is sail boat speed. I think it is underpowered for what I want.
    There is another on for sale here on Vancouver Island with a 1995 volvo 120hp attached to the original leg. According to the add it gives a top speed of 10 knots. I might try to take a look at it.
    Tim
     
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