I'm new, and I want to build a concept boat

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Schoonner, Dec 7, 2011.

  1. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    If you had 30,000 designers and 3,300 workers it would take a couple of centuries to build a boat. It will most likely be crap by the time it is finished. The free labor of volunteers would not really be an advantage either. If the volunteers worked at what they know and donated a percentage of their earnings, tradesmen could build it faster and cheaper.
     
  2. viking north
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    viking north VINLAND

    Reviewing your illustrations, you have a gift,you might begin the whole ball rolling by getting into abstract art.Visions for the sake of visions themselves or as you did with the real life object drawings visions of such. (Beautiful illustrations by the way).We all have to employ ourselves at tasks to support our passions. My younger brother was involved in an auto accident that resulted in the loss of 1/2 his memory channel. Recovering he discovered he had aquired a talent for painting magnificient abstract art. This he did, earning a basic living for a number of years while his brain partially re wired itself and allowed him to adapt to a fairley normal working life. The hidden benifit of booring, meanial tasks often overlooked is they keep us on the road to achieving some of our goals. I myself have worked at terrible jobs just to live outside big cities and support my boatbuilding passion.
     
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  3. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    Reason I ask is that even though I am not autistic by any means-I can totally focus in on tiny details, notice and remember very obscure patterns,and notice factual correlations so as to be oblivious to time and hunger.

    Being a little bit obsessive/compulsive in the right ways,and combined with patience and discipline (and other things) was the reason I was very successful in the financial markets.

    If you can notice patterns,like what you seemed to do with the swimming man,you may stand a good chance in the markets. But sorry,I am unavailable to do any mentoring,though I could give you some basic advice.
     
  4. Schoonner
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    Schoonner Senior Member

    There will always be things that we as humans will learn that will overturn something we all thought was fact. We think we can categorize, test, analyze, and ultimately figure everything out. We think we know the answers, but do we don't even really know what really is at the bottom of the ocean because we can't go there easily and stay for a year to really see what comes along.
    We are just now beginning to make materials so superconductive, and expensive, that gravity doesn't effect them. Most people think gravity is a pulling force like a vaccuum, when in reality it isn't. Read Einstein's stuff... his theory on gravity is much better than other people's theories, but his theories are not popular.

    Most things people are taught in school are nothing but theories or even still only hypothesis. Those theories which are taught are only the popular theories of people who were either popular, or had the ability to test things and no matter what, even subjective evidence is always clouded by the person who experienced the experiment and his/her predictive thoughts as to what was going to happen.
     
  5. Schoonner
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    Schoonner Senior Member

    Thank you for the encouragement. I didn't know I had a 'gift'. Do you mean that maybe I have a gift for boat design, or just a gift for art? I have always thought that boat design IS art, I mean look at the Baltimore Clipper or the Cala Esmeralda, ( http://www.occre.com/index.php?option=com_productos&task=showProduct&idproducto=21&lang=en ) they were indeed works of art.

    You might be surprised to know that, once upon a time, a room of engineers and a room of artists worked on the same car body, I think it was at Ford, but I don't know for sure. Both teams were supposed to be making a car with exceptional aerodynamic qualities. The best that they could do with a raindrop inspired car body.

    The engineers said that the edges of the fenders and body had to be rounded while the artists thought it should be angular. The car company decided to make a test to see who's idea was better. The engineers and artists were given a set time to build their own body style. At the end of the set time and the day of the wind tunnel tests neither car was more aerodynamic than the other. They were both the same in real air. The engineers and artists were sent back to the factory as equals and worked happily ever after; all the while knowing that engineering and art won't survive without one another.
     
  6. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    You are mixing apples and tomatoes. Einstein's theories are the most popular in existence. Niels Bohr's are much less known. Subjective evidence, if it can be called evidence, is by its nature, a point of view. This opinion you posted is subjective and clouds your objectivity.
     
  7. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Do you have any proof of your cautionary tale of artists and engineers or is it subjective and we should take it as an allegory?
     
  8. Schoonner
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    Schoonner Senior Member

    Is it plausible to make a 20ft sailboat into a 40ft sailboat by simply doubling the size of her fine figure and rearranging the cabin? It would have a huge door and the cabin would be roomy, Like those are bad things though right? What if you caught a sword fish, how would you get it inside with out a big cabin, and a big door?
     
  9. Schoonner
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    Schoonner Senior Member

    I know that the test took place, I don't know when, or where articles might be found. I think it was in popular science when I was in high school. (early-mid 90's.) ((That's why it is a storytale A, it came out of a magazine, and B, I have no idea if one of the cars was drafting off the other one or something stupid, but you would think a car company and a bunch of engineers would do it better than that.))

    EDIT:: The car had a really high and thin rear bumper that was very much 'boat tailed' and even shoved the exhaust gases into the turbulence behind the bumper to backfill the wake and reduce suction on the back of the car. It was very cool for me when I was 14 or 15.

    BTW, no, not all of Einstein's theories are popular. Newton still outweighs him in some areas because his theories can only be tested under certain criteria, and way back when, the measuring devices were not up for the task of measuring the perceived alignment between stars and the earth.

    EDIT:: The instruments for measuring the stars perceived distanced from one another were clever, but the results were inconclusive if I remember correctly. It is plausible that Gravity is the only force in the Universe that pulls, but I think it doesn't matter what is possible, because everything is possible or plausible. It all comes down to what works, and what doesn't, but we still don't understand everything. That's all I'm trying to say here. As much as we think we know, we only know a little tiny bit.
     
  10. Schoonner
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    Schoonner Senior Member

    Oh, and it was 30,000 volunteer tradesmen that were split into roughly nine groups of tasks, with with a thousand or so sub-tasks and an overseer who placed people in the correct positions after testing them with aptitude tests and giving them a few choices.

    They would start with free 'known' designs of different kinds of boats and be working in teams on the best boat for a specific purpose. Then, using computers, analyze different design aspects and provide a sense of congruency by making nightly builds available for download and weekly contests to enter. With that many people working at home from their own computers on the same project and a tiny cost involved submitting ideas, I think we might build the best boats to ever set sail.

    The Judges would use computers and prediction models that would predict the handling of the ship and simulate it's action in different conditions using each new submission. There would have to be under-judges that just run redundancy tests in the simulator and submit their collected data. They might get $0.50 for a legitimate completed test and have a set amount of tests to be completed.

    Someone has to have a good hydrodynamic simulation engine somewhere that could be used for a joystick and control panel controlled simulation. With everyone looking at the same ship from the perspective of, "how do we best tune the mast, is a shroud going to be better located here instead?" and then testing it at home on their own computers which will give approximate performance data from pre-manufactured virtual pieces that work with each other. Ideas would be limited in the extent of the change from the original design and everything would be on a points system...

    The program would have to be complex and calculate drag vs surface area as well as structural integrity under sailing forces from cad coordinates and predefined materials in both air and water, and the water will have to virtually interact with the air and and stuff, but there are parts of the software already available for purchase and if they were all integrated and used together with a few redundancies here and there it could be totally awesome.

    I think it would be cool to come home and sail around a virtual dream boat in a simulator that was free or low cost to download and make changes to a design that would be submitted in a specific category for $1.00 and possibly used on the actual boat and make me richer.

    The winning contestants could be paid $100.00 or something for their submission and you would never go over $900.00 a week unless you decided a gaming system was a good incentive for the 'best innovation of the month' or something. Because last month there were $19,000 ideas submitted. The way you make money is with hopeful people spending a dollar or two in hopes of winning a hundred or two. And you are paying a small ammount for something which you will likely never run out, is invaluable, and is like playing a game for your provider.

    When the first ship is designed, it is very thoroughly tested in house and then if it passes inspection it gets put into production and sold at cost + enough money to make 1/12 of another one.

    pay some people to call 'star shipwrights' and offer them a once in a while chance to get more for a submission, but the stakes are higher, and you choose who you call by their standing in previous game-like contests. There could even be a free geocaching event for the title to a boat that was paid for by the sale of other boats and voluntary idea submissions.

    EDIT:: Don't exclude your own workers from the game, but remove their cost in playing so that everything is competitive. Make it so that sometimes when something is just considered, you still pay out for it because you will get more money with more ideas and people like seeing someone being generous. Something like this:

    "We are sorry to inform you that your idea has been replaced and will not be used on the Lioness III production model. However, your idea was taken into consideration and we are allowing you to submit 2 idea submissions at half price. That way you keep more of your winnings next time around. Remember that you can earn points towards more idea submissions by testing the idea submissions of others."

    Wait!?! Give the person who does enough testing in the simulator something low cost like free admissions to the formal dinner where the winner is revealed. (You have to be present to receive your 'cash in hand' winnings and everyone has to spend $15.00 for something to attend the once a month winnings festival where you have dinner, a movie, and social networking, maybe even a yacht race..)

    Then again, I'm just dreaming.
     
  11. philSweet
    Joined: May 2008
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    philSweet Senior Member

    Schooner- You may want to look into jobs in the precision measurement equipment labs' calibration shops. The final checkout for a particular piece of life support hospital equip or missile guidance system and the like was often done by one, very accurate, very consistent fellow with Ausperger's syndrome. Tough to find people who wont "drift off" while doing repetitive, slow, time consuming tasks. Most of us simply don't feel such a job is a rewarding one as we are actually doing it. If you can, that is something to pursue. Best of luck and I like the graphics.
     
  12. Schoonner
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    Schoonner Senior Member

    I would rather be accurate testing software for use in design and behavior prediction of boats like there are for aircraft. The simulated water has to have currents, waves, it's own inertia, and movement, but also be moved around by the wind forces. That might be difficult to do on a home computer while calculating forces on surfaces at certain wind and water speeds, but computers are getting lots faster.

    Check this out: www.x-plane.com

    This software claculates prop wash, G force, wing deflection, all kinds of stuff and is $30.00 at wal-mart. I built an aircraft for it here and uploaded it here as a free download.
    http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?app=downloads&showfile=12174

    It has gotten,

    Views: 12790
    Downloads: 2122

    That is since last November when I started building it. (They take about 8 months and the two sister aircraft were going to take longer.) I sat learning aerodynamics and testing my aircraft trying to get the prop right and did it about 17 hours a day every day for months until my health deteriorated.

    EDIT:: I have pictures and data somewhere of the simulated aircraft diving at 29 degrees from vertical from 4000ft to 10 ft without contacting the ground or folding the wings up around the fuselage. Yeah, I would only do it in a simulator and I broke thousands of them getting it right, but it flies low level like a dream so I made one that would fly at 478mph around a 9 minute eliptical race course. It if won't fly well in the simulator, it won't fly well in real life. The performance ratings match what I could find from actual test flights of the actual aircraft, which was surprisingly a lot.
     
  13. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Look into the threads in this forum on software. There are many prediction programs for handling, speed, etc.
     
  14. Schoonner
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    Schoonner Senior Member

    Awesome!!

    I has a sad now though. I think that the plans for the K800 aren't fair, fare, whichever it right...

    Anyways, I think I might still be able to salvage it into a working plan. How do I know if it is even worth messing with as far as seaworthiness? I have a picture to show you how the plans are off. and I mean big time off.

    [​IMG]

    Uploaded with ImageShack.us


    EDIT::: I have determined that the plans for the K800 don't line up perfectly. I can probably fix it and I can still build it, but I don't know which line is correct. The top lines up, and the bottom lines up, but the middle vertically is not right. <Shrug>


    I had no trouble getting the templates i'm using for the side and top views to line up, but I'm having big time issues with the measurements. They don't line up with the ship and I think maybe it is out of scale. I hope it is just the lines on the sides of the plans. I did not change their scale at all.
     

  15. Schoonner
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    Schoonner Senior Member

    Schooling

    I wish there were something closer than Westlawn school of yacht design. I might have to move to the other side of the us to do it, and I will have to get financial aid in order to attend. I've never moved away with an actual destination before and I don't know how to go about it. I have hitch hiked all over the place before, but I had no destination other than "Somewhere away from all those stupid ppl...".
     
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