Ideas/Plans for a boatbuilding shed?

Discussion in 'Boatbuilding' started by Jay and Ebben, Feb 26, 2011.

  1. Jay and Ebben
    Joined: Jan 2011
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    Jay and Ebben BilgeRat

    I am exploring ideas for a boatbuilding shed that will be approx. 30'X50'. Here in Vermont we have 3' of snow on the ground right now so the design needs to be able to either support it, or shed it (allow it to slide off) a few times each winter. I do not have vast accounts to tap for this project so cost is very important to me - I am hoping a few of you out there may be able to share some creative concepts. Possibly this has been discussed here on the forum before but I could not find it.

    Thank you!

    J
     
  2. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Tad Boat Designer

    The Stimson bow shed is probably the least expensive way to to go.......

    Concept is here http://www.microcruising.com/shed.htm

    You have to be careful to scale the geometry correctly, then it will shed the snow nicely....if you get it wrong the shed will collapse....We had a few come down here (heavy west coast wet snow) before people learned....but they can be successful in larger sizes and northern climates.......
     
  3. Tad
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    Location: Flattop Islands

    Tad Boat Designer

  4. thedutchtouch
    Joined: Feb 2010
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    thedutchtouch Junior Member

    how permanent can/will this structure be?
     
  5. Jay and Ebben
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    Jay and Ebben BilgeRat

    I am looking at a ten year building. Which may well classify it as permanent - but if it is temporary there are tax advantages. The township where I live has large tax issues. On the other hand, I have not cast aside the possibility of a permanent roof structure if it is affordable.

    The Stimson buildings which were mentioned look good. I had forgotten about them. It's funny, I remember 20 +/- years ago David Stimson coming and going around the yard in Boothbay Maine - where we both used to work. I should ad, David was very respected. He is an EXCELLENT craftsman!

    Other ideas would be greatly appreciated as well.
     
  6. Lurvio
    Joined: Jul 2009
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    Lurvio Mad scientist

    Hi

    I'm not sure you want to go this kind of route, but if you could think of a use for the building after the boat is out, I'd build it as a regular building, foundations that can take the weight (does not have to be concrete, but is recommended), build the walls out of 2x4 (or2x6) as elements, about four meter sections. This size elements can be handled and erected by two men (personal experience, 3,5m high wall).

    The roof trusses I made for my workshop (25 pcs, building is 8 m x 23 m) are made out of 1x6'' spruce, assembled in a jig with 3'' nails (300 nails - 1,5 kg per pcs). The trusses weighted about 110 kg apiece, so lifting them ontop the walls was done by a winch lift. In my use the trusses hold up about 50 kg per sq.meter of weight on the lower chord and light steel plate roof on top. Most weight I've seen on that roof was well over a meter of packed snow on one side. I was on the attic (with a rubber mallet) when that mass decided to come down on one big slab, the trusses did not give any kind of creaks.

    As for cost, my workshop has insulation (free - wood milling shavings) and two layers of gypsum board inside as fire proofing and concrete floor with floor (water circulation) heating. Cost in materials (excl. insulation) is around 20 000 euros. Basically everything is done by myself with help from my father so no labour cost. For boat building I think at least one meter of additional height is needed compared to my workshop's 3,5 meters.

    Here is the model of the trusses, although these are assembled with nailplates.
    [​IMG]

    I'm sure there are cheaper ways to make a shed, and this method can also be stripped to easily save 5-10K, gypsym board alone cost over 3K. What you get is a building that will last as long as the boat.

    Lurvio
     
  7. Petros
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Petros Senior Member

    Jay,

    I am an engineer that mostly designs buildings and I have been thinking about something similar for a large boat project. The "bow shed" in the link above is too small for your needs, the loading is quite complicated and it does not just scale up to the size you want.

    Where I live we can build a "green house" up to 4000 sf without permits (and attendant tax assessments) if the walls and top are "primarily translucent poly material". You might check and see if you have something similar in your local building code (most places have these rules on-line). The "greenhouse" designation is based on design, not usage. But if the local authorities started pestering me about my boat shed/greenhouse I would hang some potted plants from the trusses for their sake.

    I have preliminary calculations and sketches of a 25x40 "Gothic arch" (similar to the bow shed shape) "greenhouse" that uses all 2x4 arch shaped trusses with plywood gussets. I would pour a slab with a thickened edge for a foundation, bolt down a mud sill, and build the trusses one at a time and stand them up. They are on 8 foot spacing and use 2x perlins every 2 feet. Than I would cover the "greenhouse" with heavy white filament reinforced outdoor tarp fabric bought on a 96" wide roll and held in place with battens screwed to the trusses. I also live in a fairly heavy snow load area so it will have to be strong for me as well. I was even considering putting in a loft up in the peak for light storage.

    I estimate the total material cost to build it would be about $4000, including the slab/foundation. Since I would be buying several slings of 2x4x8' lumber I can buy directly from the mill to get a good price. Buy the heavy poly tarp from a wholesale supplier, and buy bulk plywood, or see if I can use scrap plywood since none of my gussets are very large. Also, the design is such that it could be sided and roofed over with plywood, and roofing and siding for a "permanent" structure, or it can be dismantled and the lumber used for other projects when you are done.

    It should go up fairly fast since the minimal amount of materials are used, all the trusses are the same (you outline it on the slab, lay chords and guessts, and shoot them with a nail gun).

    I could design one of these for you if you are interested. PM me and we can discuss details.
     
  8. Jay and Ebben
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    Jay and Ebben BilgeRat

    Petros,

    Thank you for your reply. I searched images for "gothic arch" and came up with the following interesting images. Thank you for your reply - you advanced my inquiry by a considerable margin. The pointed arch is a good direction to continue as the snow will shed often and a collapse is unlikely. Calling it a greenhouse is a great idea too. I will investigate ideas of that nature with the tax office.

    I appreciate your offer to design for me but my budget simply does not allow me to hire much outside labor... I will be saving those precious dollars for further down the road when I am not able to move forward without assistance.

    It would be wonderful if other people would contribute more images of simple trusses that I can build or share ideas of low cost materials, or joint details. Light is important for visibility - saves much electric lighting costs and general good mood improves with full spectrum (natural light). So if anybody has ideas please share them.

    I noticed that height on these forms is not a problem. The challenge seems to be not having it too high for a 30' width.

    Is there really no other mention of this on the boatnet forum? if there is please let me know.

    Thank you.

    J
     

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  9. KnottyBuoyz
    Joined: Jul 2006
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    KnottyBuoyz Provocateur & Raconteur

    Petros is right. The Stimson won't scale up to the size you need. Max width according to the designer and someone who's built one is 20'.

    [​IMG]

    This one is 20' X 32'. Covering is heat shrink plastic. Cost approx. $1800.
     
  10. Jay and Ebben
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    Jay and Ebben BilgeRat

    Grat idea - I was wondering about heat shrink. Can anybody say how many years they have seen it standing? before the sun destroys it? I like the idea that shrinking it locks it together and eliminates wind vibration. Like an airplane wing/body.

    Where would I find the best pricing for heat wrap?
     
  11. KnottyBuoyz
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    Location: Iroquois, Ontario

    KnottyBuoyz Provocateur & Raconteur

    I bought an entire roll on e-Bay. Was around $300. From what I've heard I should expect 3-4 years out of it. One full roll was enough to do my shed twice over.

    This is the heavy (7Mil) wrap.

    I've also heard that the best covering for a shelter like this is painted canvass. If you've priced canvass lately you'll see it'd be a bit pricey but could last the 10 years you're looking for.

    What size boat are you building?
     
  12. Jay and Ebben
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    Location: Vermont - U.S.A.

    Jay and Ebben BilgeRat

    GREAT tips! Thanks

    I am working on a feasibility study for a 43' x 13 cutter. Trying to figure out all expenses.... could be dozing the area and laying concrete as soon as May with a building erected by the end of the summer.

    J
     
  13. KnottyBuoyz
    Joined: Jul 2006
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    Location: Iroquois, Ontario

    KnottyBuoyz Provocateur & Raconteur

    J, do a search on "Pole Shed". This might be what you're looking for. It won't be as cheap as a bow shed but significantly less than a fully framed shed. I had a friend do one of these. He contacted the local steel roofing company and got all the offcuts and blems for 25% of retail. He used these to cover the roof and sides. Just a few more ideas.
     
  14. Petros
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Petros Senior Member

    Jay,

    Designing you a gothic truss you can build is not as costly as you might think. You can throw anything up and use it, but if it fails, or does not last as long as you need, you did not save any money. The whole point of using an engineer is to save you construction cost, it will optimize the use of materials to your local snow and wind conditions to possibly save you several thousand dollars in material cost. To build a conventional pole building or stick frame shop you are looking at about $10,000 for framing materials (not including windows or doors). My gothic truss barn/"greenhouse" should cost about half that, with translucent covering you would not need any windows for lighting.

    I would be surprised if you could find a design for free that would suit your needs and cost you that little in construction costs. Since I was going to design something similar for myself I was considering doing the design for you at half of my normal fee. If I can sell the plans to anyone else than I can make a bit more off it later.

    I have used the shrink wrap before, it holds up reasonably well and is inexpensive and easy to apply. But I do not think it would last 10 years. Five maybe, if you do not get a heavy snow load on it after it was weakened from being in the sunshine for 3+ years.

    I would advise white filament reinforced outdoor awning poly fabric. IT is designed to be exposed to the weather continuously in permanent structures. Not too costly if you buy it from an online supplier in 100 yard rolls. I seem to remember it would only cost about $400 for materials to cover my planned 25x40' "green house". less than plywood or siding.

    I might have a sketch of what I was planning I could scan and post if you want to see what I had in mind.
     

  15. rberrey
    Joined: Oct 2010
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    Location: AL gulf coast

    rberrey Senior Member

    Also check with your boat designer. A set of plans for a temp building shed were included in my tristar 31 plans. I just dont want to take the added time to build it . rick
     
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