Ideal CAD software? Add your thoughts.

I have looked at many CAD options at this point. Thus far, I cannot find CAD software that inorporates all that I would wish for. So I thought I might start this thread in the hope that some sort of greater good would emerge fom several opinions, both those in general agreement, and those divergent.

As an example and starting point, my first discomfort with Rhino, and most other packages I have looked at, is an unnecessary deviation from the traditional or classical approach to yacht design. There is no justification... not really... for abandoning the designer's spiral. The difficulty in producing, in full completeness, the three views in lines drawings is, to me, not an understandable deficiency.

It should be, by matter of course, that a 3d representation could automatically be made to construct the traditional lines drawing, with the three traditional views, including diagonals (and their projected representation on the opposite side, of the centerline) which would greatly aid in fairing and visualizing waterflow along the hull. Equally, curves of areas should be automatically superimposed.

In short... everything we are (were?) used to seeing and producing prior to the CAD invasion, would be most desirable to (I think) most designers.

I would add that "unfolding" 3d panels to 2d, (which I think is presently best implemented in TouchCad), is of great benefit to the designer AND builder. I have seen demonstrations of unfolding (and nesting on sheet materials) in other packages. I would say that these, with the possible exception of TouchCad, in general fall a bit short.

Inclusion of all calculations: table of offsets, hydrostatics, static and damaged stability, etc., goes without saying.

Allow printing in various presentations (3d and 2d), as well as downloading both images and CNC data to disc(s), include all of the above, and then...

And then ... Make it cross platform!!!

Exclusive dependence on the least efficient, least stable, and least workable of the OS's we have available to us is not something I understand. I believe that yacht designers, as a group, would quickly embrace that which works best and most efficiently, and would be least likely to let marketing be the deciding factor.

My opinion, now, is that inclusion of these several parameters and features would allow greatest usefulness without the need for additional add-on software packages or plug-ins. Further, such a package, which really does not yet exist, will come. Sometime? Soon?

And, as a special favor for me, make it affordable - please.

What would folks add to, (or delete from), this list of features and functions? Free associate all you like.. maybe some developer, somewhere, is listening.

Robert

 

Free!ship.
You work in plan, profile and bodyplan viewports, with station, waterline and buttock curves dynamically updated. Key hydrostatic features including areas curve are updated real-time as you draw. No damage stability yet, but its static capabilities are getting pretty good. Interfaces with Michlet for drag estimates, and rumours of a PDStrip seakeeping implementation have been flying. Developable panels are automatically unfolded. And it's free.
Now I know it's not a 'professional' package, and it has its quirks, but by and large I have found it really easy to draw exactly the hull I want in Freeship. No, it won't do all the detailed structural drawings, but that's not its purpose- Freeship is your sketchpad, your blank sheet of vellum, and when things are how you want them, let the mechie CAD take over. I think the main obstacle in using it is for the user to look at it as a powerful tool instead of as a free toy.

 

Intrigued Developer

I'm one of those professional software developers with a traditional wooden boat building background, please tell me more about the functionality you would like to see in any new marine design package.

 

Roskilde

Here is my 2 cents worth


CAD PACKAGES FOR THE AMATEUR OR PROFESSIONAL BOAT/YACHT DESIGNER/S.

What I have in mind is a CAD package for beginners to professionals. There is no design program that is fully complete for the amateur or professional boat/yacht designer/s for his or her home PC. There are boat design packages on the market that does not meet the requirements of the average amateur or professional designer, and if there is it is either limited or the cost is to expensive for the average amateur designer to bear.

I personally have used boat design programs in the past from various US and Australian companies, and also have been taught at school in the use of, as well, but they don’t fore fill the needs of the average amateur or professional designer when it come to design boat or yacht completely from scratch.

I also believe that this program would get more people into designing & building their own boats more for those people who are on a limited budget or cannot afford a large boat. I like myself and possibly many others out there would like to design boats that are practical and seaworthy vessels and also to contribute to the boating community with safe and accessible designs, or for class associations to modify there design accordingly when the new rule changes on hull, sails, mast etc.

For this program to be a success, it must be fully tested without any floors in it what so ever, so that amateurs and professional designers will purchase this program from me and it’s upgrades, this will also help to increase sales.

Here are some of the requirements that are listed for Boat CAD:

* To suit Win 98, 2000, ME, XP etc.
* Very easy to use and operate for some one who has virtually no or limited skills in designing or operating a cad package.
* To suit either a Pentium 1, 2 or 3 etc computer this depends on what the people have i.e. laptop or desk top.
* To design Power or Sail boats of all sizes for example a model boat for the hobbyist in mind to a full size ocean going research vessel for an naval architect.
* Have input facility for class association design rules or design rules for which the boat is to be designed to. (this is to help you also to design to these rules)
* Do not need another cad package to complete the design, as some other packages does need another to completes this which also adds to the unnecessary cost and learning of these packages and waste of disk space
* Have the ability to do all the calculations that is necessary for boat design.
* Have the ability to work out all the weights etc
* Do hydro stats as well.
* Have existing design files for modifications with help you to design a new vessel from start to finish.
* Have new design file with help you to design a new vessel from start to finish.
* Ability to save the design or designs
* Ability to scan in a design to modify or update it also.
* Ability to have four screens on one big screen to see your design in plan view, profile view, prospective view and
* CAD/CAM option for steel/alloy.
* Sail calculations and inc the design for the sails to suit with help to design a new set of sails from start to finish.
* Design and engineered a mast with help to design a new mast from start to finish.
* Power requirements engine type and hp required for the vessel inc how many engine/s is also needed.
* Have a construction sequence on everything from hulls, mast, sails etc
* Print a table of offsets, CofP, CofG, etc.
* Construction in steel, alloy, timber, ply, plank on frame, stich and glue etc
* Hull type round, multichine, radius bilge, hard chine, stepped hulls, tunnel hulls etc
* Monohull, Catamaran, Trimaran and a Quadmaran.
* Have the ability to work out what size materials that you need for cabins, hulls etc for you to design and or build.
* Have the ability to design your own trailer/trolley as well.
* Have updates on CD-ROM or DVD’s with updated info, drawings etc
* Have all the items on the drawing board such as steering wheels, bunks etc.
* Have online help 24/7
* To work out the best way to save weight without sacrificing strength
* Also to work out if whether or not your design is safe to build and sail in the water and help you to make it safe, should there be a problem.
* Water tank testing facilities included in the package.
* Rules and regulations of the ABS, USL, Vic roads etc are also to be included for commercial vessels, trailers, etc and also to submit the plans for review to the relevant government and or association body for approval in your designated country.
* Work out how much material that you need to complete the vessel/s.
* Have a list of items such as winches, engines, stoves etc with parts numbers on it from the different manufactures so you can choose which best suits their needs.
* Also have a cut out drawings of engines, winches, stoves etc that can be places in the relevant area on the drawings when you are designing the vessel.
* Have a number of waterlines, buttock lines, frames/stations and also their spacings.
* Have internet access.
* To work out the costings of the vessel, in what ever currency of that country.
* Can export to a printer or plotter
* Must produce excellent quality in the plans that is to be printed whether on a dot matrix, bubble jet, laser printer or plotter.
* Body, profile, perspective, and plan views.
* put in waterlines, buttock lines, sectional diagonals,
* Have the ability to zoom in and out.
* put scale measurement on the design.
* Print to scale and write the scale measurements on the paper when printing.
* Should not go past the centreline, when designing anything.
* Can be able to drag the design within the box (up/down/side to side)
* Add or delete surfaces etc.
* Also have the ability to print each section, frames etc.
* Design shortcuts option and use the mouse etc.
* extend and shortened the length of the boat if desired or for a new design.
* If old design can convert to new construction i.e. fibreglass etc.
* Weights of different materials and work out to the design
* Weights for keels etc
* print out a full report
* All engineering to be designed for specific tasks.
* Fixed or retractable keel/s or daggerboards including swing side to side keels (decanting).
* Use products fittings etc that have current serial numbers from more than one supplier that have the same product/s fittings etc and also convert an older design or an outdated products/fittings etc with new ones.
* Do the interior design and also put the colours of the decks, seats etc to show what’s, what.
* To be able to write on the plans for construction and design purposes.
* To be able to design all the sails for sailing boats only including the ensigna and numbers.
* Include the weight of the person/s on board etc.
* How many crew is needed onboard (if applicable to full size boats only)
* Measurements are either in metric or imperial and also can switch when you have finished if you want.
* Thickness of the hull, structures etc should also be included
* To be able to print out so the designer can draw it on paper i.e. 1:20 scale or 1” to 1’ scale etc if the customer wishes the designer to do so.
* To be able to have the options for different engines & set ups etc and the same for sails etc.
* An easy to read manual with lots of examples should the designer wish to do so.
* To be able to save the drawings etc on disk or on hard drive
* recess deck, shallow draft etc.
* Find out the stress areas and fix them.
* Find out about planking on all types of materials
* Stress all materials
* Animate the boat in pitch, yaw and roll in 20, 40 frames or continues form and also use the mouse button to manoeuvre and save to disk.
* Gaussian curvature
* longitudinal curvature
* transverse curvature
* Show all surfaces contours
* Show all positive contours
* Show all negative contours
* Brightness level, 1 being light and 10 being dark.
* Calculate hydro stats.
* Parametric transformation
* Hull speed etc
* To detect and kill any virus in the program when using it.
* Put or use a device to make it impossible to either copy or use the program with out it this will stop piracy
* Registration of the program should be when the program detects a modem and sends it straight away when the user is on the internet.

I hope that the above should be some incentive for your organization to produce this CAD package.

 

I do happen to write software from time to time.
But the incentive for me to write a CAD package is a much much shorter list ( single line ).

* Allow me to earn enough money to own same yacht as Paul Allen.

 

Why hold back on the specifications you want ? If you're going for a 'fully features' boat design program, I think a voice / computer interface is a must. It would be so much easier if you just told your computer the parameters of the boat you had in mind and it designed it exactly to your hearts desire without any further input from you. Then with its fully integrated design / manufacturing capability, it would have the finished product parked in your designated marina slip by the end of the week. If the computer could also take itself off to these online poker sites when not designing, it could perhaps earn enough money to pay for it all.

Failing that, we might have to stay in the real world. There is no homogeneous 'need' in the boat design world. Different yards and different size vessels require different design procedures. Large vessels will benefit from a high degree of collaboration facilities within a software suit as many people will be involved in the design, whilst this would be wasted on a one man design of a simple cruising yacht. Americas Cup class designers want total control of their measurement points, whereas a tug design isn't that bothered about whether it rates well in racing. To incorporate all this in every program and then to want it cheap is optimistic at best. Some of us would just like the curvature hedgehogs to be visible on a trimmed edge.

 

Try Rhino with RhinoMarine.
Then you have dynamically updated sections (in all the planes you want).
You arrange viewports to make your screen look like the lines plan on a paper.
BUT you need a large screen.
I think screena rea is one reason we work in a different way in cad than we do on paper.

 

Robert:

I would like to recommend you speak with the people at http://www.basline.com/ about your concerns. Since you're in Rhode Island, you might also try Steve Hollister at New Wave Systems. Both these developers were deeply involved with lofting hulls as they were developing their products.

Another way might be to do a 2D lines drawing using AutoCAD LT, DesignCAD, TurboCAD, or other simple CAD program, as you would on paper: starting with creating your grids, making them gray in color, and putting them on a locked layer. You eliminate some of the advantages of using a computer, but also do away with the drawback of having to learn new methods for things you already understand using the accepted, classical way of doing it.

I think Multisurf will export to CAD in a classic lines drawing format. Autoship and MaxSurf probably will too. You can then tweak the views using classical 2D methods if you like.

One CAD program some designers like for semi-manual lofting is Cadkey. If you want to go 3D while retaining plenty of manual control, check it out. It's was the CAD program preferred by the industrial design department at http://www.pratt.edu/ last I checked, but it has lost market share and has not been updated recently. See http://www.kubotekusa.com/products/cadkey.html

I think the design spiral concept applies whatever method you use. But perhaps you have something very specific in mind concerning the steps along the spiral.

One last thing: I think the software forum is the appropriate area for this thread.

Good Luck!
Stephen