I would like help with a 38-45 foot trawler design

Discussion in 'Powerboats' started by Quatsino Boater, Feb 18, 2011.

  1. FAST FRED
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    "If the biggest single expenses of ownership are moorage and haulouts (both priced by the foot of length). The shorter boat might be cheaper if time under way is less than 100 hours a year....and for most it is far less than that....."


    The cover of Passage Maker mag this month has the ideal boat for your area.

    It seems to be higher than it is long!!

    With the cats and other really fat boats many marinas are charging by the square foot.

    Simple LOA (including davits or swim platform) X extreme beam.

    This is much fairer , and may allow more efficient boats .

    If the boat is set up for iT a mooring ball is usually 1/10 to 1/20 the cost of being dockside with a big power hose.

    $50 OR $100 a month for a mooring ball is lots easier on the billfold, but not as easy for the party barge to have guests.

    For a boat outfitted to cruise , there is little hassle.


    FF
     
  2. Quatsino Boater
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    Quatsino Boater Junior Member

    Hi I am total embarrassed about moorage fees. Last night was the annual general meeting for our private Yacht club. One thing was mentioned was we are going to go for actual length instead of advertised length as stated by the manufacturer. This is more realistic value of dock space we are using. That being said there is a yearly maximum cap which is probably less than some monthly fees to the south. I usuall do over 200, sometimes close to 300 hours a year right now with a full time job going by the hour meter on our campion. My wife has here side of the boat and I have mine. She makes the selection of her tackle, bait and depth. She has started to do the cleaning of the fish as well. She baits the prawn traps , pulls four of them by hand and the cleans an freezes them. My wife totally supports a boating lifestyle so going for over 300 hours after we retire is'nt going to be a stretch. She does however gets a little queezy when our 21 footer encounters over 6 foot seas so I will have to sell her on a comfortable boat.

    So I have been doing a little research on the web. A very good site I found was - http://dashewoffshore.com. or the page - http://dashewoffshore.com/dashew215.asp . It is the best stuff I have found so far on stability and comfort. They talk a great deal about revolving most of your activities around the pitch center. Well explained and some very convincing pictures and video of thier voyage in 20 to 30 foot seas. If I could have anywhere near the limited motion as in their vidio, I would be hassled by my wife to make a yearly trek to Hawaii for the winter! all I can say is wow if those are really 20 to 30 foot seas.

    There are substantial storms and seas here so going with a high profile (Windage) doesn’t make any sense at all unless you remain at the dock. My friend at work is also a welder and built a 36 foot ketch rig sail boat but has it on the inside. I have been talking sailing with him about the 42 schooner design. He having ketch experience said the schooner rig might be a tad harder to initially use, the amount of square footage gained by a schooner rig to push a power boat would be a definite bonus so I think I’m giving it a green light for the schooner rig for a trawler.
     
  3. peter1962
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    peter1962 Junior Member

    In this type of boats, i think that you could also take a look at Tad's Passagemaker Lite 46Plus. It is a clever aproach to make a boat that has a reasonable fuel consumption. (i would prefer it with one engine though and a cpp) But i think it was primarily designed to be build in cold molded so i am not sure if plans exist to make it out of steel. This design dont have additonal sail, but how much fuel does one realy can save, compared to the extra cost of building the boat with all that extra gear ?

    For insulation : like Richard already mentioned, the best of the best is Armaflex. see http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/me...hull-isolation-alternatives-foam-26839-2.html

    Greetings,
    Peter
     
  4. Quatsino Boater
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    Quatsino Boater Junior Member

    I did look at Tad's passagemaker light. It does look and behave like the Dasheoffoshore boat the windhorse. While I do like the comfort of the ride and the stability of the design of both boats , I'm really not a fan of the yacht look. I just don't like the above deck superstructure/ wheelhouse. For one thing too much glass. As mentioned before I have a very active lifestyle and my wife and I are active on the water. I woud prefer minimal above deck structure with more deckspace for fishing /prawning and crabing. This is where I Prefer Tad's passagemacker lite because he would add higher bulwarks. A big thumbs up from me on that idea Tad!

    Back to the glass, If I had my way I would have glass only on the pilot house and nothing for below decks. I would sacrafice natural light for water tightness and eliminate glass breakage. If its raining go into the wheelhouse if not enjoy the decks! Cooking and sleeping below decks. Now if you could combine the effeciency ,the comfort and the stability of the hull with a more industrial/comercial down to business above deck stucture there would be something. I doo like some of Bruce Roberts ideas on that note. The proven spray hull from his sailboats used on his passage maker trawlers. I like that, taking the best of both worlds. goood hull and using it for another concept.
     
  5. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    The heavy displacement steel halibut schooner and the lightweight fast Passagemaker Lite are two very different animals.......they are designed for very different purposes and mindsets.....

    The halibut schooner will be slow and comfortable offshore in anything up to and including a hurricane. The PL will cover ocean miles at speeds above "hull speed" but motion will be much quicker and more tiring than that aboard the heavyweight.
     
  6. Quatsino Boater
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    Quatsino Boater Junior Member

    Hi Tad,I was just doing a bit offsite research into stability when I stumbled onto the Windhorse and your passagemaker light. I was impressed with the detailed account of the Windhoarse journey from Fiji to Cali with accompanying photos. You designers are doing amazing things these days!

    That being said, I still love and want a fully displaced heavy. I really like the schooner wilth the higher Bulwarks. Besides being functional in heavy seas thety have a line that really pleases a guy like me. I have visited your site often the past weeks and I am wondering if you have study plans availible when the time comes to narrow my selection. Yours is one of the front runners. Still kicking around some of Bruce Roberts designs and Michael Kastens designs. I am still looking 2 years out before building . I would like to narrow my selection based on stability/sea handling and comfort first. Ease of sailing with two people second, interior layout third and cosmetic apearance last. The more I talk to my budy with the 36 foot ketch the more I am convinced the schooner rig is the way to go.

    Interior space I would like is a full height engine room , I know its tough because of lowering windage from a high of a pilot house. By lowering into the hull you can decrease the windage. One bedroom with a 5x7 foot bed and a sette or couch plus a wing chair with a stove. A Wheel house with maybe a small sette or a bench and table for my wife to join me and for charts. No bunk beds or other berths. The sette can convert to a temporary bed if nessisary. I am unsure of a powerplant manufacturer . I hear alot of good things about John Deer but I am more familiar with Vovlo Penta. Lots of dealerships for parts. Do you recomend a CPP? My buddy just has a fixed 3 blade on his ketch. Is there any rolled sections of plate I will require on your design? Something to think about, I may have access to a set of pyramid rolls good for 1/2 inch. I am currently looking at 2 building locations. Oh quick question , what would be an estimate for max range while under power? I know you said it could take a hurricane , that being said would you say the design of the 45 foot Halibut schooner could do the southern California to Hawaii route? Just a more ambitious thought of mine. We love hawaii and vacation there often. I have seen some nice boats in Hilo bay. Thanks :)
     
  7. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    This is an example of the designer's dilemma.....The client will say, "everything about your design is perfect except I want full headroom in the engine room".....or some such ;).......causing one to start over again.......the clients never seem to understand that a boat is a tightly integrated system and a mix of science and art......That every element is dependent on all the others. Change one factor and it may, through cascading incremental changes, change everything so that you end up with a completely different boat.......

    The comfort and seaworthiness are dependent on the arrangement which is dependent on the looks which all affect the ease of handling and safety....a circular exercise......

    I can't think of a single 38-45' trawler design with standing headroom in the engine room. Almost always compromises are made away from this to create better living accommodations. Many on this and other forums will argue against creating a highly specialized "white elephant" that will be unsaleable.......but amateur designer/builders do it all the time.....

    If one wanted forward slanting pilothouse windows, auxiliary ketch rig, and full standing (walk-in) headroom around the engine this is what I would do in the way of revising the 42' halibut schooner......

    HSrev02.jpg
     
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  8. Quatsino Boater
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    Quatsino Boater Junior Member

    Wow, that is the same hull? I just showed the wife the new sketch, We kind of like both!
    I was wondering how much different the two would be stability wise? The forward sloped version, does the numbers change a whole lot? It shure does look sharp though. The person you sketched in the stern, does the bulwark goes as high as your hip? Is it the same on both designs? We do alot of March to June halibut fishing. Most of the time you have to plant yourself down and stay there in our little boat. While drifting for hali's s we alway get following seas since you want your lines out the back. Here is a shot of the boat rolling to Starboard, in a trough with a six footer comming. This is Halibut fishing :)
    [​IMG]

    Any way, all the work you have done so far Tad is very much appreciated and I will spread my experience with you to all the guys up here at the dock. :) I will try not to keep hounding you for tidbits untill we make a selection. Speaking of which, do you have study plans available? I would like to know more and I do feel that in the future more details will be needed to figure out a BOM, options of plans ect. Plus I think any more questions and I should be paying you for some sort of preliminary work.
    Thanks again Tad :)
     
  9. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    Most folks do not walk around the engine room , unless the boat is 80+ft.

    What is far more important is the ability to actually get to all the engine parts that need service EASILY!

    Needing to lift the engine to replace the starter is not my idea of a grand design, but it has been done!

    To my mind a space to sit comfortably next to the engine , both sides , on a milk crate would be grand.

    And remember todays boats are filled with many other items that frequently require 3x the service of the engine.Noisemaker , watermaker , hyd steering pump, fw systems , fire or deck wash .

    While it was on a bigger boat than you are looking for 55ft , I saw the forward cabin used as the engine room very sucessfully.

    NO one wants to be forward underway any way , so why not put the cast iron there?


    The flair of the hull gave great spots to install stuff , noisemaker etc.

    There was a WT door for access , a full width head/shower, and a second WT door , so the boat was really quiet. The engine was a 3000 lb 6-71 , today the engine would be 1200 lbs for the same cruise speeds.

    The boat had a CPP taking the thrust loads , so simple (Cheap!) truck shafting was all that was needed to operate.

    Built in the 60's the MS had 2 circumnavigations completer when we saw her .

    FF
     
  10. Quatsino Boater
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    Quatsino Boater Junior Member

    Seems like the start of every season I take my boat to the " autherized dealer" to get the boat ready for fishing. The first trip or two I end up repalcing the belts myself after they say there good. Happened to do a lower gasket on my raw water heat exchanger 2 years ago on the water what a pain that was. This really p's me of since I am a journeyman millwright and I have to keep a mill running 24/7. My work is always under a microscope. I take myy boat to a service center because I wrench full time and I want my boat to beready for the weekend. Enough about marine mechanics grrr

    With my current boat I can change powersteering belts, waterpump/belts at sea but it requires being upside down and several cuts and bruises from the fibreglass engine cowling. I'm a big guy and I work every day with mechanical engineeers educating them on pump, compressor, hydraulic and machine installations. Besides a journeyman pipe welder journeyman milllwright I also endured 2 year of mechanical engineering as well. Pay isn't as good as a junior eng compared to a tradesman and you don't get to use tools. The problem is most of the time is the design only is though of as o one shot deal. Take a pump for instance, the impellor wear rings might have to be changed anuall over the course of 30 years . is there a lifting eye or monorail? Is there sufficient room to swing out the pump from the casing. Is there a need for a drop out coupling. I kind of think if I am offshore in a boat and something breaks I need a full battery of tools, spare parts, lifting devices and a place to work on them. It's not like you can just drift over to your nearest industrial/marine store and get somthing your missing. If your workspace and equipment isn't organized in logical,orderly and ergonomic fashion you may not be able to complete the repairs, encure further dammage by trying to try an unusual method due to lack of space and finally injury because of lack of proper equipment or poor layout.

    I deal with this sort of thing for a living , I would not like inheriting poor layout and cramped confined and dangerous spaces in my pleasure time. A well layed out work / equipment space is generally a well maintained workspace since it has easy access and it is not difficult nor require special proceedures or tools to do routine maintenance. It all starts from the beginning . Once you design and build a workspace you are usually stuck with it forever. I beleive get it right the first time. This is why I actively participate with engineers , with a focus on the junior ones that haven't seen industry or have seen a shutdown and how repairs are accomplished and how a design can influence the manhours and cost for a given repair.

    so to sum it up If I have ownership of a peice of equipment, I would insist on functional workspace with a proffesional well laid out electrical, hydraulic and auxilary equipment. pipping that is propperly formed,in parralell row and attached to bulkheads. Electrical sytems in cable trays or in conduit that new wire are cable can be easily installed by fish tape. Mounting of fuel filter,hydraulic filter banks where you can get a drip can or tray under them so you don't have a mess all over the place. This is what I would expect as a standard. I don't mean to offend anyone in the boating industry but this is my experience from my industry over the course of 25 years.
     
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  11. Quatsino Boater
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    Quatsino Boater Junior Member


    Wow check out tonights forcast!! no where is considered inshore LOL :)
    http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/840/stormij.jpg
     
  12. Quatsino Boater
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    Quatsino Boater Junior Member

    Hi Tad , about that schooner design

    Hi Tad, I read your post about design/ client conflicts. Had a wee bit of a chuckle . That being said, I looked alot closer at the schooner and did see that without raising the wheelhouse you couldn't get headroom in the engine room. Sorry about that. I really do like the two ideas of the schooner and without seeing the numbers I trust you when you say it can take a Hurricane. Like the one tonight comming through? Eleven meter seas and seventy five knot winds? Wow! I trully Hope no one is out there tonight or tomorrow.

    I hope you don't mind but I roughly scaled out the hull layout view and redrew it for illustrating an idea for a floor plan in that vessel that My wife and I would like. I left the bulkheads on both sides of the engine room intack. I removed the aft stairs to the stern. I added a wall aft and kept all door ways/passage ways either 24 or 30 inches. I left out shelving and extra counters to keep down the clutter in the drawing. Would this minimalist floor plan effect the stabillity adversly? If you like it by all means use it. It's the kind of layout we would like to see. I would leave the pilot house the way you have it.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    QB,

    In this type of heavy displacement ballasted monohull, the furniture doesn't make a great deal of difference......as long as some awareness is kept in mind (no solid granite counter tops and bathtubs) and the bulkheads don't move you should be okay....Tanks are big weights, battery banks, etc

    In the picture below I have overlaid the cabin sole limits on your arrangement. The thing to be aware of is that there are limits, as you can see some adjustments need to be made. The door into your aft stateroom needs to move inboard, as does the galley counter and the couch opposite.....The sole can step up on each side of the owner's berth for access........

    revlayout02.jpg
     
  14. Quatsino Boater
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    Quatsino Boater Junior Member

    Thanks Tad, I wasn't too sure where the sole was. So far though the accomidations for one couple is pleasing for my wife. And I must agree with her as I get older, a few more aches and pains. A good night sleep on a good bed makes all the difference.
     

  15. Quatsino Boater
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    Quatsino Boater Junior Member

    Does anyone have any comments on Boden boat palns? Good ,bad or otherwise? I am still keeping my options for a design open and I do like the BB530 "trade Winds" 12.6 meter @ 26,190 kg. It has sail plans for 27 square meters. I do not see any stability or hull numbers but it is generally what I am looking for. Again any comments are most welcome. :)
     
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