I've spent some time considering the requirements for a slightly different record, broken many times, the distance covered by a human in 24 hours.
Far and away the single most important aspect is the motor, all else is secondary. My task was to come up with an optimum approach to the secondary issues, it ain't easy.

First order, simple and light, every ounce (or gram if you were raised in a rational universe) makes a difference.

Two decisions are required, first how to provide the power and second the minimum drag at design speed.

The record has been held at different times by paddlers or peddlers. I've the pleasure of knowing one of the paddlers, Carter Johnson who is physically suited to the task, a superb athlete and very nice guy. My potential client comes from a cycling background which easily establishes power approach.

Two approaches to the actual design were considered, foil borne or optimized displacement hull. Client liked the foil borne approach after he saw an old video of the original foil borne "walker" from years ago. My concern with the approach is a foil system is real "peaky" EG very good in a small speed range. Decavators pop up foil was an ingenious solution to the issue but not well suited for a 24 hour craft. My preference was an optimized displacement hull stabilized with a steadying foil/skimmer, an approach I've had some experience with.

The project hasn't developed but I'd like to say a bit about putting the power into a driving force. Paddles and propellors have both been used for the distance record. I've long admired a horizonal fin approach after seeing what Mother Nature developed with the orcas. An issue with such for a floating structure is the inevitable up/down component introduces some non optimal vertical oscillation, easily minimized by placing the fin under the CB.

One last issue is optimizing the motion of the horizonal fin. This bothered me for a while because any mechanism under water would seriously increase drag. The obvious solution finally came in that you could have the mechanism above water so the only thing in the water was the fin and a couple of minimal struts piercing the water.

Great probability is it won't be built but it's been an interesting exercise.
Hi, Skip--I wanted to get back to you on this. It looks like you may have been involved with Animal Dynamics/Malolo? Didn't mean to harsh out on your work, if so. What you're describing--vertically oscillating horizontal fin, mechanism above water--looks like the opening photo on the BBC article you mentioned.

Things I like:
Oscillating propulsion (big "actuator disk" of the "linear propeller")
hinged foil
mechanism above water
means of controlling vertical oscillation of rider
no hull
general minimalism and lightness

Things I'm not as enthused about:
Any up-and down motion (central stabilizing fin has drag)
Hard to control pitch (?)
Pedal only, no arms or trunk
Rotary cranks give no mechanical advantage at top and bottom of pedal stroke
Craft sinks if it's not moving (I'd assume)
I don't see any mechanism for variable pitch (maybe not needed?)

The article is pretty fluffy, without a lot of specifics. What I can't see is the mechanism that turns rotary input to oscillating output. Are there any videos? I'd like to see it in motion.

I have read that the real limiting factor to efficiency/speed is the cardiovascular fitness of the "engine," as you state. It's why sea kayaks, which don't use as many muscles as rowing shells, or canoes, which have a comparatively short power stroke (jab) are competitive with shells, which to my earlier way of thinking they "shouldn't" be. Certainly over distance, it's not as important exactly how low-drag you are or what your peak power is, or stroke length, or whatever--it's whether your pilot has the aerobic capacity to keep up the motions required to activate whatever powertrain layout is chosen over the long haul. So I see why you went with a displacement hull.

I'm not sure a planing boat has staying power either. Certainly, hydrofoils seem to be a short-duration application--most seem to be able to sustain being on foil for maybe a minute? Or I guess some stayed on foil over 2000m? But not 24 hours, for sure.

I'd be willing to bet that, even if one could get an HPV to plane, one couldn't keep it up for long. 100m flying start, for ten seconds? Oh, for sure. Might even get some aerodynamic lift there. 2000m, ~6 minutes? Um, I doubt flying. Maybe you could plane for that long. Longer than that, though, and yup, I'd agree with you that displacement is the way to go.

DaggerRo has such a wide stance because he needs a stable platform for his foils shuttling back and forth. I like flat-bottom quad floats for shorter L/B for planing, but they could also possibly be useful for negotiating big waves (articulated), even at lower speeds.

But both flat bottoms and short L/B are not an ideal configuration for displacement travel. Don't know if there would be variations that would couple the opposed, balanced, dual vertical foils idea with a goal of challenging the 24-hour record (or R2AK, or ocean crossing), but if so, I'd say go for it! Or encourage some ambitious and perhaps young person(s) to go for it. Make it a mechanical engineering semester(s) project. Mix and match whatever might suggest itself. (Just again--don't take credit for ideas that aren't yours. A simple "credit to Paul," when you're talking or writing about it, does just fine, for me.)
 
I'm a mildly interested spectator and I think it can be a good sort of project to push boundaries.I'm not utterly convinced that rowing or paddling is the best approach as both can only provide intermittent power delivery.Pedalling has been mentioned and I think it is worth further consideration,not only because of the uninterrupted power,but it might also allow less windage of the boat plus propusion system plus occupant.A reclining pedaller and a connection to a good propellor via a streamlined strut could allow a reduced frontal area and the strut might be a good attachment point for a lifting foil.Maybe a small trimming foil near the bow and a realisation that it might have a short life in the wrong piece of water... Feel free to ignore or not,as you see fit.
Hi, wet feet--thanks for the input. Not ignoring. I think rowing actually CAN provide non-intermittent power delivery, and have thrown out some ideas (I guess this gets appended below, so, "above?").
--
What I personally don't like about pedaling is that you can't "coast." You have no "flywheel," like, say, a bicycle does, when it has a lot of momentum rolling down the road. You're always working against a lot of drag, maybe like riding up a very steep hill while seated, in too big a gear. The only experience I can draw on is pedaling a paddlewheel boat on a pond, and I absolutely HATE that feeling. It's like molasses. I get exhausted after a few strokes, but I have to keep up some reasonable cadence or I get stuck at the top of the pedal stroke. I have no leverage at all when the crank's in that position, so if I don't have some momentum built up to carry me through the "apex" and get me going down so the cranks get more perpendicular, I'm out of luck. Maybe it's better with a rotary propeller instead of a paddlewheel, or if one used gearing, or if I weren't such a wimp. But I do not like it, Sam-I-Am. Love bikes, hate paddlewheel boats, expect I'd hate pedal-powered, rotary-propeller boats, but it's not fair to judge without trying one out. (I'm not actually a rower, by the way. Have a rowing machine I barely use, have rowed Dad's dinghy--a Phil Bolger-designed Nymph) around. Fun, and I like the sensation, just not enough to do it every day. When I retire, maybe I'll go live by a lake.)

As an inventor, I HATE hearing and saying things like "if it were such a good idea, then why don't we see pedal-powered, rotary-propeller boats everywhere?" But it's tempting, here. We do see them, but extremely rarely. They're maybe like recumbent bicycles--a good idea, lots of theoretical advantages, but almost the only ones I see on my rides are pedaled by lovable cranks, usually fit old guys, usually retired engineers. I can't say why this is. Hard to control, maybe? Subject to tipping over? Heavy? They hold no speed records, but maybe because they haven't been given an honest try. Give my man Tadej Pogačar one. Maybe he'll excel at it. He seems to excel at every other discipline, so might welcome the challenge.

(Actually, come to think of it, what I just said above is baloney--ALL HPV speed records on land are held by recumbents, aren't they? Faired recumbents, on the flat, usually. Huh. Well, let's just load Mr. Pogačar into one of those, shall we? He needs to polish up his time trial skills, though, based on yesterday's results in the Dauphine. He's probably just using the whole stupid race just as week of training. That punk.)
 
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"a fly in the ointment"

Hi, Horton HCCI.
I would like to point out a couple more contradictions that complicate the use of a oscillating foil propulsor on a HPB.
From the diagram of hydrodynamic forces
Notional illustration of oscillating foil motions.jpeg
( for example, given in this article: On the optimum performance of oscillating foil propulsors
https://cris.vtt.fi/ws/portalfiles/portal/52866869/Sanchez_CajaA_JMST16.pdf )
acting on the fin, it is clear that the efficiency of the propulsion device depends on the ratio of the transverse velocity of the fin to the speed of the oncoming flow, that is, to the speed of the boat.
When the speed of the transverse movement of the fin is less than the speed of the oncoming flow, the thrust force decreases, and the force expended on the movement of the fin increases.
From the above, for a given fin motion swing and the required boat speed, it is possible to calculate the minimum frequency of the propulsion cycles required for energy-efficient movement.
For the boat to move at the speed you indicated, 18.50 knots, and with the fins moving transversely at the same speed with a motion swing of each fin of 1 m, the frequency of the fin propulsor is approximately 5 cycles per second.
It is unlikely that anyone would want to row with such frequency :)
It therefore follows that some kind of transmission will be needed to match the rowing frequency to the propulsor frequency.
Such a transmission, allowing the fins to make six oscillations per stroke of the rower, was, for example, proposed in this old patent: Nonwatertight submersible vehicle
RU2081028C1 - Nonwatertight submersible vehicle - Google Patents https://patents.google.com/patent/RU2081028C1/en
2081028.jpg

2081028-2.jpg

The use of a transmission means additional losses in efficiency and a reduction in performance, and this is where the contradiction lies.

Some scientific articles on vortex theory indicate another criterion for the efficiency of a fin propulsor: they say that the highest efficiency is achieved with a fin movement span approximately equal to 3 chords of its profile or even less.
It is also known that the efficiency of a fin also depends on its relative elongation, the ratio of the length of the fin to its width (the chord of the profile). The practical value of relative elongation is usually no less than 4, as for example in yacht rudders and daggerboards.
For these reasons, it is preferable to reduce the motion swing of the fins, which will accordingly require an increase in the frequency of their oscillations to ensure the required speed of the boat.

I wish you good luck in finding a technical solution to overcome these contradictions!
 
Hi, Victor--

Thanks for your input! And nice work on your oscillating foil craft. It looks like you've done a lot of building there, and I salute you. Oscillating foils do appeal in theory, for sure, but I agree the devil can be in the details.

I'll concede I can't follow the math you reference. But I don't agree with your and the authors' findings, based on general principles and observed trials. I think, for a human-powered craft at least, the goal should be length of travel, not speed of oscillation.

To start with, if you think of fins as imitating either the up-and-down flapping of a dolphin or whale tail, or alternatively as the side-to-side swishing of a shark or tuna tail, I think you're neglecting an important aspect of what those animals are actually up to. As near as I can tell from what I've read, what distinguishes these swimmers from human and mechanical attempts to imitate them is that they rely on an undulating "leading body" to shed alternating vortices (Karman vortex streets) that the tail then interacts with. The animals essentially draw their tails through their own shed vortices at just the right timing and angles that they maximize relative velocities and thrust vectors. They can give their tails a perfectly-timed flick at just the right moment, something like a whip crack, to gain maximum thrust at the optimal orientation. What they're doing is basically this:
Swimming Upstream: Computational Hydrodynamics of Trout Locomotion

It's a fascinating motion and it obviously works very well for them, but I think we can agree that designing and fabricating an appropriately undulating leading body like this is mechanically very difficult. It has not been convincingly done, although it's been tried a few times, that I've seen. And yet if we don't have it, we don't have the shed vortices to work with. We're trying to "flap" a disembodied tail, or to wave a tail (or "tails") behind a rigid body. It tends to give disappointing results. You might get something like this:
Flapping foil propulsion 4
Which in the real world might look something like this:
Oscillating foil test
Or this:
bi-flapper boat experiment
Not real impressive. Yes, there are likely some shed vortices, or at least vortices cast off at the turn, but they're not cast by a "leading" body. By the time the foil makes the turn to try to catch its own vortices and do something with them, they're already disappearing astern. Frustrating.

But what if we just gave up on trying to get "power at the turn," or what you're referring to as the "motion swing?" What if we gave up on leading bodies and undulations and shed vortices? What if we gave up entirely on fishes, and whales/dolphins, and sharks for inspiration?

After all, people are not sharks (well, most of us.) We don't have super-flexible bodies that can deliver powerful, short strokes at high frequencies. But what we DO have, that the fishes DON'T have, is leverage. We are LONG. We have long, rangy, gangly limbs. They don't move fast, at least not back and forth, but they can move FAR, especially when you combine full extension of legs, lean of body, and contraction of arms. THIS:
No shark of comparable size can come remotely close to that "stroke length." She has at least four times the movement. Just look at her!

And when our limbs and body still don't move far enough, we make tools to give us even more leverage and mechanical advantage. Atlatls, for instance. OARS.
How about this guy?
Given that long, low-frequency strokes are what humans are good at, the longer the foils travel, the better. As a single sculler in a racing shell, this guy's oar blade tips have a wetted travel of about 4m on each stroke. Calculate it if you like, I have. Good luck matching THAT, fishies. Twelve feet, for the benighted among us. In about a second, at sprint speed.

So we can't match the frequency of sharks, and we don't have the vortices to double back on. But man, can we do amplitude. To me, that means we should focus not on the turn, but rather on getting as much thrust out of the travel BETWEEN the turns as we can. And make that travel as long as possible.

I think a helpful model is a sailboat. By pulling your foils back and forth along a transverse track, you're essentially trimming your "sails" so that they always present a more or less consistent angle of attack against the flow that they encounter (except at the turn, of course, but let's ignore that for now). You're operating in water rather than wind, and you're "making your own wind" by pulling your foils along their tracks rather than having the wind blow across you. But the principles are exactly the same. Particularly relevant is the principle of "apparent wind"--the forward shift of the wind the sail (or foil) encounters as a result of the boat's forward travel.

Say a boat is going 18.5 knots. The foils are not moving along their tracks at all--they're feathered, just trailing back. How fast are they going? 18.5 knots. Straight forward. If you now pull them transversely across the flow that is parallel to the boat's travel, at ANY speed, at ANY angle of attack below stall, you will generate lift (thrust). You do NOT turn. You do NOT "flap." You do NOT sweep. Focus only on pulling the foils at a rigid angle, transverse to the boat. Set them at the angle you want, and pull them straight out from the boat, perpendicular to its line of travel. Keep on going for as long as you can, until you are forced to turn around ("tack"). Try not to lose to much power when you do tack. Then do the exact same thing to go back to where you started. Foil angle fixed. No radial component to the travel.

Thrust may not all be directed forward, and in practice it won't--it'll be mostly athwartships, like a close-hauled sailboat heeling over. Only some (usually fairly small) component of thrust will be directed forward. You are also generating a lot of drag, and it may be that the added drag outweighs the added thrust, or that the thrust vector is oriented so nearly athwart that it isn't contributing to any added forward motion (akin to a sailboat being "in irons"). But the important thing here is that I am NOT looking at the turn--what you're calling a "motion swing." I don't care about the swing. If I could, I'd avoid it altogether.

But if travel is what it's all about, why don't we just stick with a conventional rowing configuration? There is, after all, well over a thousand years of tradition behind it, and a good century and a half of history of sliding seats. Sliding riggers, which are just a bit better, had a brief flourishing about 50 years ago. A good rowing shell powered by an elite athlete in a sprint really is pretty fast. Is there any room for further improvement?

I submit, yes. For instance, here is an "Aquaskipper" over 100m:
He's doing about 12 knots, about equal to the rower. CERTAINLY the most impressive oscillating foil configuration I've seen. Very similar, actually, to the contemporary fad of pump foiling: https://youtube.com/shorts/TqaEfH4DlGc?si=m5JhPcg_eAcfFiRL. Some claim around 14 knots, although I haven't seen evidence. This guy might be close. Both are clearly starting to get close to my goal of 18.5 knots. And neither is anywhere near 5 cycles per second, so that's obviously just baloney. Equations to not determine the world, it's the other way around. Both are doing maybe doing 2 cycles per second, if that. And certainly nowhere close to 4m per stroke. More like .5. Is there something in between, perhaps?

I submit, yes--a rowboat. But a better rowboat. I believe that the secret is, a rowboat already IS an oscillating foil propulsion system. Even a conventional one. It's a pretty bad one, but that's exactly what it is, in effect if not appearance. I can go into this into great detail, if you need convincing. And unlike those aquaskippers and pump foils, it doesn't waste energy bobbing the pilot up and down, and it uses leverage (long oarshafts) to get twice, three times, four times the travel. Its only problem is that its "foil" (blade) travel, while incredibly long, is absolutely all over the place. Big, radial sweeps. Its angle of attack is appalling. It's at stall a good half the time. Its thrust vectors spend a lot of the time athwartships, out to sea, up, and down. It's embarrassing. That's what I want to get at. I want a better rowboat, AND a better aquaskipper/pump foil. Combine the advantages of each, and throw out their deficiencies. Forget the fishies--we are land animals with a completely different anatomy and its attendant set of both advantages and disadvantages. Stop trying to imitate something we're not, and start with a clean slate.

There's a lot more to it, but this is already getting pretty long. Still, I hope I've convinced you 5 cycles per second is nonsense. That is not a barrier. More to come, if you're interested.
 
The world is full of ideas and theories. Build it and show us.
 
I currently have several boat designs that I'm reluctant to show anyone. Revolutionary materials and technical solutions. No , they don't exist even in my pc.
 
I currently have several boat designs that I'm reluctant to show anyone. Revolutionary materials and technical solutions. No , they don't exist even in my pc.

Yep. :). Speaking of, did you ever get around to whipping up something to test out suspension ideas?
 
No. Because I have to make two family boats and that's what I'm thinking about. The first one is a kind of jonboat. The second is a power cat designed for the Mediterranean during the summer. I spent two weeks on this sea and the inflatable boat scared the kids in the waves. I'll make a catamaran about 33'.
 
No. Because I have to make two family boats and that's what I'm thinking about. The first one is a kind of jonboat. The second is a power cat designed for the Mediterranean during the summer. I spent two weeks on this sea and the inflatable boat scared the kids in the waves. I'll make a catamaran about 33'.

Gadzooks! That sounds most ambitious. Make sure to share!
 
Here's another way of hydroplaning that was discussed a few years back. Info is in the response section.

Building Hydrofoils - THE INTERNATIONAL HYDROFOIL SOCIETY - ESTABLISHED 1970 https://foils.org/academic-papers/building-hydrofoils/

I like it because it uses water friction as an advantage, instead of a barrier that has to be overcome. I created and experimented with a single disc just out of curiosity many years ago. Might be within the range of human power if it could be configured based on a single disc or possibly two, rather than the four which were used in the prototype. There used to be online videos demonstrating the concept, but the original link is defunct, and I haven't been able to find any others.
 
I'll concede I can't follow the math you reference. But I don't agree with your and the authors' findings, based on general principles and observed trials.

Hi, Horton HCCI,
sorry, I didn't mean to scare you with mathematical formulas :), and I gave a link to a scientific article only because I used the diagram from this article.
By the way, this diagram turned out to be not very clear, so later I will try to draw my own, similar to the layout of forces on the sail you mentioned, and use it as an example to explain what I meant.
But for now I will only give general considerations.
I think you will agree that the propulsion system in your boat project is of the oscillating foil propulsion type (patent class B63H1/36 Propulsive elements directly acting on water of non-rotary type swinging sideways, e.g. fishtail type).
And the features you described (large span of transverse movement of the fins) relate to only one of the operating modes of this type of propulsion device. Therefore, if there is a theory or experimental data that allows at least approximately calculating the characteristics of this type of propulsion device, I see no reason why it should not be used in the design.

But to understand the essence of the propulsion system, we can do without complex theories, using only Newton's law of action and reaction.
Let's say you are a pedestrian. To walk forward at the desired speed, your propulsion system - your foot - must push the road backwards at the same speed.
If you are rowing a rowboat, which has already been accelerated to the desired speed, then in order to maintain this speed, your propulsion system - the oar blade - must move backwards at a slightly higher speed so that the blade rests on the water. If you doze off and the oar blade moves backwards at the same speed as the boat, there will be no rest on the water. If you move the oar even more slowly, the blade will resist the boat's movement, slowing the boat down, and will no longer be a propulsion system, but something like a watermill blade.

Now consider your boat with oscillating foil propulsion.
In order to maintain its movement at the required speed, the fin of your propulsion system must also be moving at a certain speed. Although it is not obvious due to the fact that the fin moves perpendicular to the boat's movement and the thrust on the water is formed in a more complex way than the thrust of the oar blade of a rowing boat.
But when the speed of the fin movement decreases, it will also first go into neutral mode, and then into the mode of resistance to the boat movement. To understand this, we need a picture of the hydrodynamic forces acting on the fin at different ratios of the boat speed and the transverse speed of the fin movement, I will try to draw it next time.

So, to create thrust, we must move the fin at a certain speed, depending on the speed of the boat, and to move the fin, we must apply some force. The ratio of the thrust force to the amount of force expended can serve as a measure of the efficiency of the propulsion system. If you want to set a record, you must use the propulsion unit with maximum efficiency, which means you need to select the parameters of the propulsion unit that correspond to its maximum efficiency.
The data from experiments with propulsion units of this type show that the maximum efficiency mode corresponds to very specific ratios of the fin speed and the boat speed, which can be used to approximately calculate the fin oscillation frequency for a given fin swing.
This is what I tried to do and the result for a speed of 18.5 knots and a fin swing of 1 m was in the range of 2 to 7 oscillations per second, and for a fin speed equal to the boat speed - 5 oscillations per second. Perhaps, using other experimental data, other figures will be obtained. I think computer hydrodynamics specialists can calculate more accurately.
 
Here's another way of hydroplaning that was discussed a few years back. Info is in the response section.

Building Hydrofoils - THE INTERNATIONAL HYDROFOIL SOCIETY - ESTABLISHED 1970 https://foils.org/academic-papers/building-hydrofoils/

I like it because it uses water friction as an advantage, instead of a barrier that has to be overcome. I created and experimented with a single disc just out of curiosity many years ago. Might be within the range of human power if it could be configured based on a single disc or possibly two, rather than the four which were used in the prototype. There used to be online videos demonstrating the concept, but the original link is defunct, and I haven't been able to find any others.
I can't see the pictures here. From the description, it almost seems like a Tesla turbine? Using surface friction as a means of transmitting force from "disc"(?) to water? Can you make a drawing or sketch?
 
If you are rowing a rowboat, which has already been accelerated to the desired speed, then in order to maintain this speed, your propulsion system - the oar blade - must move backwards at a slightly higher speed so that the blade rests on the water. If you doze off and the oar blade moves backwards at the same speed as the boat, there will be no rest on the water. If you move the oar even more slowly, the blade will resist the boat's movement, slowing the boat down, and will no longer be a propulsion system, but something like a watermill blade.
.

Hi, Victor--

OK, lots to discuss here. I can try my hand at fleshing out some very crude vector diagrams for my own design, but in the meantime here is a little "monograph" from my dad on how conventional oars actually work. Start about 2/3 of the way down page 2 ("in contrast to the conventional view....."). Prepare to have your head exploded. :D.
 

Attachments

I can't see the pictures here. From the description, it almost seems like a Tesla turbine? Using surface friction as a means of transmitting force from "disc"(?) to water? Can you make a drawing or sketch?
Maybe a search for the patent will turn something up, Francis Reynolds was the inventor.
 
I can't see the pictures here. From the description, it almost seems like a Tesla turbine? Using surface friction as a means of transmitting force from "disc"(?) to water? Can you make a drawing or sketch?
I did make a model to trial the concept a few years ago based on a snippet from a model boating book by Vic Smeed. Propellor or vertical fin were significantly more efficient at model size and I abandoned the idea.
 
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