Hydraulic pump on PTO engine

Discussion in 'OnBoard Electronics & Controls' started by B33RND, Jul 29, 2009.

  1. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Nice to see you deal with them too now. I buy that engine cheaper.
     
  2. B33RND
    Joined: Jul 2009
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    Location: Netherlands

    B33RND Member

    The system I am focusing on has a hand pump attached to the wheel as well, which make hand steering possible 'in case of'. Thereby I am building a power boat, so as soon as my propulsion is gone a rudder is useless.

    Concerning the WH Autopilot (thanks for the info): There design is not very stylish on a modern bridgde. Furthermore, autopilots in which some important settings can be made, such are boat speed, boat size, yawing, rudder gain and counter rudder, are all good enough as long as those settings are proper.
     
  3. marshmat
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    Location: Ontario

    marshmat Senior Member

    All half-decent autopilots ought to give you the control functions you need. If I were buying one (which I'm not, as neither my current boat nor my next boat have any need for one) I would be more concerned with durability and ease of service. Manufacturers often seem to recommend something a bit too small for the boat, so they can beat the next guy's price. Better to oversize it, and make sure you have enough drawings and spare parts to be able to fix it mid-ocean or in a strange port. Styling doesn't matter much when saltwater has entered the fancy plastic case and you can't get the darn thing open.
     
  4. B33RND
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    B33RND Member

    I am wondering if all the autopilots which are used to give steering orders directly to the hydraulic pump (such as Raymarine), if those autopilots are also able to handle solenoid valve's of a hydraulic power unit.
    Berend
     
  5. Guest62110524

    Guest62110524 Previous Member

    yes, and the best are B AND G thats commonly accepted although they are more expensive
     
  6. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Though not a fan of US products (except for some Diesels) I have to concur with Matt.
    Will Hamms AP´s are a very, very nice stuff, and away from commercial systems I have´nt seen any better.
     
  7. B33RND
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    B33RND Member

    Another question: What should you choose for the bow thruster: electric or hydraulic. I have heard that electric thrusters keep there power better compared to hydraulic, because of the load from the hydraulic pump to the engine. The rpm is going down by that load which affects the thrust of the bow thruster.
    Berend
     
  8. marshmat
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    Location: Ontario

    marshmat Senior Member

    If you go by what the thruster manufacturers tend to say, a particular electric thruster will always provide roughly the same thrust (provided it's wired properly) but can only run for a few seconds at a time before you have to let it cool down. Continuous running tends to overheat them; they're meant to give a quick burst to nudge the bow in the right direction.

    The hydraulic versions seem to be preferred where longer duty cycles are required, ie. if you use the thruster to hold the boat against the pier for a few minutes while passing lines ashore. If you fit a properly matched load-sensing hydraulic pump, it will automatically adjust its displacement to provide an appropriate pressure and flow rate to whatever accessories are being used, regardless of the current engine rpm.
     
  9. B33RND
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    B33RND Member

    Hello again,

    I was interested whether you are satisfied with your Deutz. Which type you choose for? Actually somebody else recommended those Deutz engines to me as well.

    Many people advise against a hydraulic bowthruster which is fed by a PTO driven pump on the main engine. The reason would be the actual remaining thrust because of the lack of power on idle diesels.

    That problem should be solved (according them) with this Deutz engine as they have a special electronic governor which should keep the rpm's on level when for example the hydraulic bowthruster is started.

    Are there more people who have experience in this Deutz engine?? and this governor in particular?

    Thanks
     
  10. B33RND
    Joined: Jul 2009
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    B33RND Member

    Are there more people aware of this phenomena: Many people here in the Netherlands say that a hydraulic thruster doesn't actually give the thrust they were designed/delivered for. This is the case when the engine where the supply pump is attached to is on stationary/idle RPM.

    Thanks in advance for your comments,

    Berend
     
  11. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    We use an auto pilot that was designed to operate about 25a of hyd punp to move the cylinder..

    It functions quite happily prompting solenoid valves that are installed just past the wheel control. There fused at 2A so the power consumption is low .

    We can over ride the AP simply by moving the wheel should that be necessary.

    The big hassle with Hyd bow thrusters is most docking is done at idle , and no matter how big the pump , at idle it wont do much.

    The solution is to install the BIG hyd pump on the gen set , where it can operate at much higher speeds .
    I have seen a charter boat in NY harbor that needs to battle 5K docking currents , and he has a cut-out for the electric generator part , and runs 2100 for hyd while docking , instead of the 1800 the generator usually operates at.

    With massive power from a gen set a hyd windlass , boat davits and all the usual toys is easy.

    Read the instructions with many electric thrusters , 45 seconds every 5 min ,,,THAT SUCKS!!

    Hyd thrusters will run "forever".

    The gen set could also do double duty as the get home steering should the main engine small hyd pump pack up.

    Every boat needs an emergency tiller , no matter how many backups.

    FF
     
  12. TollyWally
    Joined: Mar 2005
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    TollyWally Senior Member

    In my slightly biased opinion electric bowthrusters are toys and real bowthrusters are hydraulic.
     
  13. WotEver
    Joined: Aug 2009
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    WotEver Junior Member

    I don't know if it's something peculiar to narrowboat usage, but Vetus electric bowthrusters in particular have a very poor reputation in the UK for wearing/breaking/sticking brushes and hugely expensive replacement cost (of brushes).

    Regards,
    Tony :)
     
  14. B33RND
    Joined: Jul 2009
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    B33RND Member

    I agree that a hydraulic thruster is the most solid solution. Bud I will have no generator to attach the hydraulic pump to, and I even don't want to start the generator solely for using the bow thruster.

    Therefore I am searching for the ultimate solution for using a hydraulic thruster which is properly fed by the PTO of an idle running (propulsion) engine. With that pump the Autopilot can be fed as well.

    Perhaps using a CPP would be the solution?? Than one can leave the engine running on a higher RPM just during maneuvering so that the hydraulic pump supply enough of oil to the bow thruster.

    Berend
     

  15. Dynaset
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    Dynaset Junior Member

    You should select the right size for the hydraulic pump, depending on what it wants to use the hydraulics. One right size for the hydraulic pump makes it possible to produce energy for hydraulic propulsion, bow thruster, stabilizers, hydraulic generator and etc.

    Ideas are only a boundary.
     
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