Hydraulic Propulsion AND Generator

Discussion in 'Diesel Engines' started by nkurb, Dec 24, 2013.

  1. Adler
    Joined: Jan 2010
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    Location: PIRAEUS - GREECE

    Adler Senior Member

    Info

    There is no difficult point on that system.

    1. The Engine runs stabilized at 1500rpm. The speed Governor is a 1724
    Woodward applied on fuel pump BOSCH P7100.
    You don't have difficult points in Engine's Speed regulation when the
    delivery torque load is twisted because of Electrical or Hydraulic energy
    absorption.
    That is done Automatically [Auto speed feed back magnetic sensor on
    Engine's flywheel] from 1724 Woodward Governor.
    2. The System produces independently Electric and Hydraulic Power.
    3. You can choose to absorb more Hydraulic Power than Electric and/or the
    opposite.
    4. The engagement of hydraulics or electric is activated independently.
    5. The system blocked only at the top of the engine's Effective Power.
    6. The stabilized engine could be built on a sound sealed canopy to have
    remarkable decrease of noise pollution.
    7. The stabilized on speed engine produces lower emmisions and has higher
    range between maintenance services of moving parts, on a basis of
    torque respond due to an Engine's speed that kept constant and
    stabilized at 1500rpm.
    On that area of speed the engine has the best efficiency on torque
    delivery and a significant fuel economy if you compare to an in-line
    on propeller shaft propulsion engine that regulates its speed with
    respect to applied propeller's load at a constant basis of fuel flow
    that defined and depended to the position of fuel pump's lever manually.

    Of course that smooth system based on a different concept than this thread purpose but I had referred that variety when started to report on this power management option ; pointed as "near" to the proposed.

    Thank you for your time to see my thoughts/design.
     
  2. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    None of those calculations are taking into account the extra power losses inherent of a hydraulic system. For heavy loads, like a winch or capstan, the fact that they can't be overloaded because the pressure relief valve opens, makes it a viable option.
     
  3. Adler
    Joined: Jan 2010
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    Location: PIRAEUS - GREECE

    Adler Senior Member

    Info

    Thanks for your comments/notes Gonzo,
    So you give me a chance to provide details

    This system is not work like that on the cases you referred.
    For such cases are installed variable flow piston pumps as you
    can see on the first two photos (Sauer-Danfoss pumps or Parker-Eaton).
    The control hardware reacts by quite different ["differential sence of flow control"] way.
    When the working torque load of a winch or capstan
    is increased the unit reduces the flow by a proportional
    swift of the pistons' driving stroke_plate angle at a lower position
    [working piston stroke inclination]
    and the pressure could be achieved a significant increased level
    keeping the power on steady state.
    On that cases the safety valves are configurated to
    "shock apparatus_mode" and not to "relief_mode"
    to protect the ship and the hunging load.
    The lift attendants could be involved in two Stages.
    1. Activate Orders = Heave_Stop_Take Down
    2. Regulate the differential sensitivity of the System power reaction
    at a way of how fast should be a reaction be dropped at speed
    and increased on pressure [torque].
    On the other hand the efficiency of the closed loop piston pumps
    are never less than 93% under worst conditions of temp/pressure.

    Finally you have a given/steady rate of efficiency in any condition
    of load at heavy seas.
     
  4. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    According to your data, the overall loss would not be more than 7%. I'll do some calculations on fuel consumption.
     
  5. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    I looked into hydraulic drives (along with diesel electric) a few years ago and IIRC the most efficient system was 90% at the pump,93% at the motor (very high pressure) and with line and valving losses was about 75% overall. Just to drive a genset with more losses.

    Nkurb why not have a DC genset running a Kubota 330 single cylinder- small, quiet,cheap if DIY,will last forever, and sips the fuel...and harvest the heat as well.
     
  6. nkurb
    Joined: Dec 2013
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    nkurb Junior Member

    My main question regarding having a second diesel dedicated for power would 'is it worth the extra cost, maintenance, etc. vs. Hydraulic system and generator'.

    It basically comes down to what is cheaper and more easy to maintain:

    1. Single engine with hydraulic propulsion and hydraulic generator.

    2. Two engines. One for propulsion, one for power.

    Realistically, the propulsion engine would be hardly run. Which can also be a bad thing for engines in the long run.

    Those kubotas don't include the gen set correct? Any estimate on Kubota engine with generator cost?

    EDIT: Looking through the internet, I see a lot of alternator based setups on the Kubotas. Is that the typical 'generator' setup with these engines?
     
  7. michael pierzga
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    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    First you should review the price of a PTO pump, oil cooler, valve blocks, plumbing , proportional controller , hydraluic motor and gearbox , shafting , prop, rudder......



    Then buy an outboard motor for the times you need power
     
  8. nkurb
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    nkurb Junior Member

    Hydraulic based system has been priced. I'm curious about the marinized Kubota generator, if someone has one.

    This is a 40 foot steel 'narrowboat' houseboat.

    Getting an outboard for such a boat is getting into much higher costs. Plus, my experience with outboards has always been quite negative. I would ALWAYS rather maintain a diesel or hydraulic system then a gas outboard. A gas outboard that sits for long periods - you're just asking for fuel issues.
     
  9. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    What is your hydraulic system price and how many KW output from the pump ?
     
  10. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    I'm still a bit puzzled by all this trouble with pumps and motors to generate power. when a 125 to 250 amp DC alternator can be bolted to an engine with little hassle.

    One can buy the old non US non EPA compliant designs ..EA 300 as Chinese clones. Not sure they'd last as long as the genuine copy,but they can be had for $3-4 hundred bucks.

    Forget those $5k gensets,they are gouging. Not sure what the real Kubs are going for nowadays,google will tell you...bolt on an alternator,enclose it and she will be silent.

    If the Kubotas are good enough to be power packs for the Abrams battle tanks,it's good enough for me...which has been 6 years/2000 hours of trouble free use with annual oil and belt changes. In fact,I haven't even changed the belt for a couple years.
     
  11. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    I also like electric power and would investigate it.

    I have very much experience with hydraluic power packs on yachts...expensive , noisy and inefficient.
     
  12. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    Seems as he's going to be plugged in 99.9999% of the time, a silent Honda genset on the aft deck for the odd foray may be the best bet.
     
  13. FAST FRED
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    For a boat that will seldom be moved it might be possible to obtain a 60 HP or so outboard that is dead and install a Hyd motor where the gas engine was.

    Not super efficient , but if not for long transits , so what?

    The use of a small DC unit , a 15 Hp used truck reefer engine (few hundred bucks ) with a 12V or 24V coach (Bus) alternator of 220 -300A could make great power to recharge a house batt bank , as the engine can be slowed to only produce the power required.

    One downside is an inverter that is inexpensive 1500W for under $200 will operate a fridge or microwave , but not a heavy load like an air cond.

    Other hassle is IF really short DC charge times are required the std deep cycle lead acid battery is not too fast at accepting a charge after 85% full.

    You would need batts to operate at 50% to 85% full, and in no way would the system produce enough power to move the boat.
     
  14. BMcF
    Joined: Mar 2007
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    Location: Maryland

    BMcF Senior Member

    Just fyi...Kubota has been providing their engines to Onan for many years now, for use in the Onan-branded gensets; its been a long time since most Onan marine gensets had "Onan" engines. They are often delivered with an auxiliary output shaft and excess power rating (over and above that required to spin the alternator to rated KVA) to support other consumers; hydraulic pump or direct-driven HVAC compressor being the two most common that I'm aware of.
     

  15. BMcF
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    BMcF Senior Member

    Older ones, perhaps...but the modern yacht HPU can barely be heard when standing only a few meters away from it. Efficiencies in excess of 90% are no longer uncommon either, depending on which function you refer to.

    Expensive?...well..yes. I've seen precious little go in to any 50-million-dollar yacht that wasn't expensive.
     
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