Hybrid Electric Propulsion for Boats, Diesel-Electric, etc

Discussion in 'Hybrid' started by brian eiland, Oct 12, 2011.

  1. Frog4
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Location: Arizona desert

    Frog4 Proletariat

    perpetual motion

    Hopewell Project

    and that system is OLD ... listen carefully to HOW he does it and WHAT he is using for components... all of this is scalable for boating/rv use ...
     
  2. Kay9
    Joined: Oct 2006
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    Location: Central Coast Oregon US.

    Kay9 1600T Master

    Damn some actual FACTS.
    From an article published by Pop=mechanics

    HURDLE 2: Storage
    At room temperature and pressure, hydrogen's density is so low that it contains less than one-three-hundredth the energy in an equivalent volume of gasoline. In order to fit into a reasonably sized storage tank, hydrogen has to be somehow squeezed into a denser form.

    COMPRESSION: Some hydrogen-powered vehicles use tanks of room-temperature hydrogen compressed to an astounding 10,000 psi. The Sequel, which GM unveiled in January 2005, carries 8 kilograms of compressed hydrogen this way-enough to power the vehicle for 300 miles. Refueling with compressed hydrogen is relatively fast and simple. But even compressed, hydrogen requires large- volume tanks. They take up four to five times as much space as a gas tank with an equivalent mileage range. Then again, fuel cell cars can accommodate bigger tanks because they contain fewer mechanical parts.

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/next-generation/4199381

    The GGE for Hydrogen made by solar is $9.50 right now I buy diesel for all 3 of my boats at just under $4.00 per gallon without all the storage headaches.

    I dont see any political/oil company conspiracy here. I just see a technology that as of yet, dosnt pen out.

    If you think it dose then I challenge YOU to convert YOUR boat in the Arizona desert and prove diffrent.

    Remember, remarkable claims REQUIRE remarkable PROOF.

    kay9
     
  3. Frog4
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Location: Arizona desert

    Frog4 Proletariat

    perpetual motion
     
  4. Willallison
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    Location: Australia

    Willallison Senior Member

    Frog4... I happily came to your defense on another thread... but now I'm beginning to think you may have spent too long out in that desert sun.

    I'll ask just one question. With the populace craving for anything and everything that is "green" and with companies spending billions on trying to be the 1st to come up with a viable alternative to fossil fuels, do you seriously think that it's something that any "backyard DIY shade tree builder" can pull off with off-the-shelf items?
    Me thinks not...at least not yet...
     
  5. kerosene
    Joined: Jul 2006
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    Location: finland

    kerosene Senior Member

    Are you saying that 150w solar panel is enough to produce hydrogen to power 5kw fuel cell in constant use? Or are you saying that 50 sunny hours (100w average) from the solar panel can run the fuel cell for 1h?
    (actually 1/2 h when you count in electrolysis and fuel cell efficiencies)

    Former scenario is nonsense - latter needs storage, compression and is far from practical in terms of "charge time" vs "use time".

    I am not doubting the existence of any of these individual components - I am doubting that you can put together a chain that is
    a) practical
    b) makes any financial sense
     
  6. kerosene
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    Location: finland

    kerosene Senior Member

    ok so I get the general premise - but to confirm.

    you claim that you can run 5kw fuel cell with 150w hydrogen generation unit NON STOP. Without needing to cache or store the gas.

    Why not have the fuel cell produce the 150w too if that is the case?
     
  7. Frog4
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Location: Arizona desert

    Frog4 Proletariat

    this is a GOTCHA, loaded question ... referring to perpetual motion ...
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2011
  8. kerosene
    Joined: Jul 2006
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    Location: finland

    kerosene Senior Member

    BOOM!!

    If the system you described would even remotely work we would have no energy challenges and we wouldn't have to waste any money on silly renewable business.
    If energy out>energy in you have perpetual motion mechanism. Congrats you broke the fundamental physics laws - laws of thermodynamics. And to think that cell phone companies have been doing this for a while!

    Of course that is not the case. You are not going to create enough hydrogen with 150w to run your 5kw fuel cell.
    Obviously the physics dictate that you
    1. put energy to change molecular state of water to hydrogen + oxygen (in your electrolysis machine / or equivalent)
    2. Put hydrogen and oxygen together to create water you will receive energy (your fuel cell)

    1 = 2(-losses)

    Never ever would 2 be bigger than 1.

    To me the most amazing thing of these faux revolutionary ideas is that what they suggest would revolutionize modern science, create immediate energy independence (for foreseeable future anyway) but the typical way of using such radical knowledge is to create a 5kw powered recreational boat.

    Don't you think that is a little bit thinking small. ?
     
  9. Frog4
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Frog4 Proletariat

    I originally had typed out a response that did include that with your idea, what you're referencing is perpetual motion, I knew that is what you were looking for, but thought better and provided the above ...

    thanks for setting me on the straight and narrow kerosene ... I will stop my current project ...
     
  10. Frog4
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Location: Arizona desert

    Frog4 Proletariat

    Remember, the scientific consensus was that the earth is FLAT, the universe revolves around the earth, the sun is IRON, the sun is Helium, the sun is Hydrogen, Phlogiston, Alchemy.

    All of these and MORE without a single shred of EVIDENCE. So, these scientific communities CHOOSE to believe a hypothetical theory (not real or true).

    It's pure dogma ... they have a HUGE intellectual investment in these LIES, and it's going to take an act of GOD to dislodge them from their positions after all these years.

    How's THAT for thinking small.?
     
  11. kerosene
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    Location: finland

    kerosene Senior Member

    dear Frog
    comparisons to flat earth thinking or the commonly used 'wright brothers were told they were wrong too' type of claims have no place here.

    You think you can beat core scientific facts that have worked so well for hundreds of years with... intuition?

    All the elements of your experiment are well known and I am sure there are a lot of people who can calculate the hydrogen generation to electricity efficiencies. That would sure save you a lot of money. You can also Google/youtube a guy who runs all his home with solar panels and the excess is stored as hydrogen in big tanks. Very advanced system and basically when the sun isn't enough he taps in to the H2 - he has 3 months energy stored in the tanks.

    Ask him. He is doing exactly what you are suggesting with the exception that he understands that you don't get something for nothing.

    When I was really young I had an idea. If electrons travel from battery's minus end to positive through a wire (and a small bulb in this case). What if I pulled the wires very quickly from the battery and connected them into a loop maybe the electrons would have momentum and keep looping. I still think that I just never was fast enough....

    edit: grammar
     
  12. Frog4
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Location: Arizona desert

    Frog4 Proletariat

    I removed my project details so as to NOT confuse others with an obviously flawed setup ...

    as for your additional example, I had already provided the link to the Hopewell project, which happens to be from 2005 using then DATED tech ...

    you won the debate, provided facts ... stop swinging/beating a dead horse ... saved me a boat load of cash to boot, thanks :)
     
  13. kerosene
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    kerosene Senior Member

    no need for sarcasm...
    I want to see this kind of evolution and innovation - and I applaud to people for doing these pilot projects that might fail in economic or practicality sense but help developing and learning the technology.

    What I don't like to see is outrageous claims like 150w producing 5000w. I am sure your goal is not fraudulent but we see tons of similar concepts that are geared towards stealing people's money. People who lack the basic understanding and are vulnerable for tech mumbo jumbo.

    Understanding the fact that you cannot get something for nothing is important.

    Solar is cool - and the per watt pricing keeps dropping so it is definitely an interesting field. Energy storage is one of the biggest challenges to make these alternatives feasible.

    good luck.
     
  14. WestVanHan
    Joined: Aug 2009
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    Storage is not really a problem,the material is: Lithium-6 Deuteride and also Lithium-7

    Google - United Nuclear Hydrogen Corvette
     

  15. kerosene
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    Location: finland

    kerosene Senior Member

    I mean energy storage in large scale in general is tricky and often cost not feasible (storage vs. energy cost ration is out of whack).

    It might be worth in special applications but for household energy needs coal/nuclear/hydro is superior in the way that it doesn't care about the weather. For solar or wind to work for substituting traditional it needs to be able to store a cache at least on some level.
     
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