Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by kvsgkvng, Feb 26, 2012.


WHat do you think about this boat?

  1. Will this boat float?

  2. Will this boat be a fine fishing boat on a lake?

  3. Will this boat accommodate a husband and wife?

  4. Will this boat be able to sail in protected and coastal waters?

  5. Will this boat make trans-Atlantic journey?

  6. Will this boat travel around the world?

  7. Will this boat have enough capacity for all provisions?

  8. Do you like this boat?

  9. Would you add any constructive comments?

Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
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    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT 249 Senior Member

    If you will yield to professionals when it comes to making the rig work, why do you dismiss one (PAR) when he says the rig is the wrong way to go?

    Issues (from an experienced non-professional);

    1- How do you get any reasonable forestay tension when there is no backstay?

    2 - If you rely on an immensely strong free-standing mast to solve the previous problem (and that may be impossible) then how much extra weight are you forced to carry aloft and at the base?

    3 - The angle of the forestay means that as you roller reef then the Centre of Effort will probably move UP, rather than down (as with a normal main and normal forestay angle). The forestay will also sag dramatically (see Pt 1) so you will have a very deep sail high up, causing great heeling moment and very low performance. One wonders how close you could sail at all to the wind. Why is it safer to get blown onto a lee shore rather than get out of the cabin? How would a boat with all its sail so far forward tack, in big breeze and waves?

    4 - Why do you think you'd need to get out of the cabin on a 12 footer with a sloop rig? You could rig a downhaul on the jib if you don't want to roller-furl it. You can reach a long way forward from the companionway of such a small boat, and it's probably not too hard to design a hatch that prevents large amounts of water coming in - imagine a hatch with a kayak-like cover underneath and hanging loosely. If one really needed to reach forward, one could slip your body through the kayak-like cover and then open the hatch. The cover would allow you to get your torso out without water getting down below.

    Surely that is an easier system than one that destroys performance and can still very easily go wrong?

    5- Highly-angled forestays tend to cause the jib to "collapse" in light winds, so they hurt your light wind and strong wind performance. This in a boat that is so small that (IMHO) you really need as much speed as you can get. Your cruising ground may be very different from mine, but when I had a fairly fast 20 footer (sort of like a baby J/24 or IOR racer) I found that I really needed as much speed as possible to get from port to port within my endurance.

    6- Actually the basic hull looks quite nice, although as others have noted it could perhaps do with more firmness in the bilge and stern. But I'm no pro.

    7 - If you don't want criticism, please don't ask for it!
    1 person likes this.
  2. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    What I think is the problem here is he wants to hear why his ideas and concept will work, rather then the obvious flaws, as seen by professionals and skilled amateurs alike.

    The hull form and appendages have lots of issues and a list of them, isn't as important as getting a sufficient education about yacht design, to determine them one's self.

    The same can be said about the rig selection, though the education may be best served with actual sailing experience. This rig as currently envisioned, has nearly as many flaws as the hull form and this doesn't address the obvious placement issue seen in the drawings.

    As I pointed out in my last point, this poster just doesn't get it, nor will he without the understanding of the principles and engineering involved. It's interesting to note that he's not answered the basic premise of how he came to size his structure. I'll try another question, what's the rigging lead used on your two rigs? More importantly why did you choose that particular percentage of lead?

    As far as:

    Sweet God why, it's so flawed that a small book of text would be necessary, most of which would be well over your level of understanding, as to make it meaningless, which frankly is a waste of time.
  3. The copper guy
    Joined: Feb 2010
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    Location: Back in the UK

    The copper guy Junior Member

    You build it and i will sail it, But no record breaker.
    Record for transatlantic 5ft 6in.
  4. tom28571
    Joined: Dec 2001
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    Location: Oriental, NC

    tom28571 Senior Member

    If you cannot believe that this would not work, then there is no point in telling you what is wrong with it. I have difficulty in understanding the fascination that novices have with such a rig. It has been tried quite a few time and I have see a couple of them. All were fatally flawed except a small one that required little forestay tension and never needed reefing. It is up to you to study far enough to understand the obvious and not so obvious problems. PAR set you on the course of things to look at but if you expect to be spoon fed an understanding, that will not happen. Understanding is a personal thing and cannot be transferred.
  5. Outlaw45
    Joined: Jan 2012
    Posts: 104
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    Location: Olympia,WA

    Outlaw45 Senior Member

    when I read stuff like this I wonder if this guy even knows how to sail. it's one thing to read, but it's another thing to go out and sail some different rigs to know and understand what you're talking about much less try to design when ya don't know what your even doing.
    well I got better things to do then read something from one who doesn't learn from others. bye.

  6. Milehog
    Joined: Aug 2006
    Posts: 421
    Likes: 38, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: NW

    Milehog Clever Quip

    kvsgkvng, a small but important question. How much boating experience do you have?
    Have you ever tried to dry out your gear, or for that matter, keep the interior of a tiny boat dry. How much experience do you have dealing with rough or confused seas, not to mention trying to make headway into the wind against the current in a painfully slow boat? Where will you take a dump without it getting all over everything?
    You asked if there is anything you missed. There is, comfort. Do not discount it. A beat up, sick and fatigued crew is dangerous.
  7. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Likes: 481, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    From his other thread and all found within a single post:
    This is the same poster that thinks the boat doesn't need a centerboard (or dagger or lee) and his rudder can do all the work.

    His own comments clearly suggest his level of understanding . . .
  8. kvsgkvng
    Joined: Jan 2012
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    Location: *

    kvsgkvng Senior Member

    Thank you all for the time you spent trying to help me. I am trying to do my best and slowly getting all advice in order. I do not challenge anything and think that any input is a very nice on the part of anyone who cares to spend time over here. Absolutely, I will read a lot of literature on this subject. The only thing I can not to change is that it would take some time to absorb.

    Perhaps I am a bit slow and need really simple explanations, like I have got from some people who expressed their opinion in lame terms for me. I hope it worked, that is why I ditched most of the stuff from the previous pictures and I am trying to start from the beginning.

    All I am asking is a simple help for me by pointing out drawbacks of this hull in simple terms, like this: “the transom needs to be a bit wider,” or “the cabin is a bit low,” or “the freeboard is overly high,” or something similar.

    I do not understand one thing. Why when I humbly ask for help for a particular item, some prefer nudging me into something different? It is like an architect trying to persuade a family on a budget to get extra bedroom and nice in-ground pool, when all they want is a simple log cabin.

    As the result my “huevo” grew to 14 feet long… :)

    Anyway, if you have no hope in me, please let me try to prove to you that I mean no harm and I am not trying to be arrogant and forceful. I want to be nice to everyone and I am still looking for simple help. Thanks.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Feb 29, 2012
  9. JosephT
    Joined: Jun 2009
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    Location: Roaring Forties

    JosephT Senior Member

    Hello kvsgkvng, some answers to your questions:

    1. Will this boat float? Yes, if properly loaded out on calm seas. In rough seas it will likely be doomed unless you install a cockpit hatch and add keel to help keep it from rolling (shallow draft).

    2. Will this boat be a fine fishing boat on a lake? OK for small lake in calm winds only.

    3. Will this boat accommodate a husband and wife? Yes, just barely.

    4. Will this boat be able to sail in protected and coastal waters? Probably, in calm winds if you have a lot of ballast and a heavy enough rudder.

    5. Will this boat make trans-Atlantic journey? Not on your life.

    6. Will this boat travel around the world? Not on your life.

    7. Will this boat have enough capacity for all provisions? No, too small & needs design improvements. Study other bluewater hull designs & how to prepare for long sea journeys.

    8. Do you like this boat? No, I can see it rolling all over in rough seas. The hull is too rounded and stubby...will be a handfull to steer.

    9. Are there any constructive comments? Study bluewater cruisers (not coastal cruisers) if you are even contemplating a trans-Atlantic or round the world journey.


    These are proven bluewater hulls with many years of journeys & circumnavigations under their belt. The smallest one I see listed is the Flicka 20.


    If you're smart this is about as small as you want to go. Most prefer to go with a ~30ft+ boat so the crew can get rest, privacy & keep their sanity. Unless you've been in tight quarters for any period of time you'll find out the smaller the boat the more dangerous and dicey things can be while under way. Ideal boat size in my opinion is somewhere between 35 & 45ft.
  10. kvsgkvng
    Joined: Jan 2012
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    Location: *

    kvsgkvng Senior Member

    Thanks, for clear and well spoken reply. I will absolutely look at the site and I have seen Flika 20 before. Thanks again.
  11. JosephT
    Joined: Jun 2009
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    Location: Roaring Forties

    JosephT Senior Member

    Sure thing. Study those designs well. You'll see common key features on these bluewater hulls. Most considering a serious voyage shop around and pick up one of these hulls used on the market and get a refit if necessary.

    The more costly approach is to design a hull using one of these hulls as a general baseline. If you do venture out and design one of your own, your best bet it to have the design reviewed by a well respected nautical architect that has designed/built some bluewater hulls.

    You'll note for the most these hulls have streamlined keels that are properly weighted out, and the rudders are built like a fortress. This is to ensure they have a good capsize ratio (e.g. tend to right themselves if they roll over) and the rudder never snaps off. The streamlined rudder helps reduce snags on fishing nets and othe debris which is all over the ocean these days. Beyond this their cabins, hull & sail plan are very well thought out and will give you time to enjoy the journey rather than wear you out.

    On the interior layout, if you have a well balanced interior design you can avoid having to move stuff port/starboard/fore/aft to balance it loading the boat out is just as important to ensure your proven hull can perform the way she was designed.
  12. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
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    Location: Michigan, USA

    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I like your transom version better.

    The original rig with the big jib is better (IMHO) than the straight, mast aft,
    jib only. For any off shore work, two sails are better than one. One can steady the boat while the other is being set or taken down. Also, the mast will be far enough forward to get at least some back stay purchase, without resorting to elaborate boomkins. This would not be a good windward rig. as there would probably be too much sag in the luff of the big jib to get it to set well, but it should be able to make adequate windward progress.

    The good is that the mast is near the cockpit area. The bad is the bottom forward corner of the jib will be hard to get to. If your roller furling device screws up, you will have to get to it.

    A boat this small will have to be totally decked over in order to be seaworthy enough for open water. You will be best off if you can control everything from inside, so water has fewer places too get in. And it will do its level best to do just that.

    I'll show you a concept of mine for an around in ten boat, to give you a better idea of what I'm talking about.

    Notice the high sides and deck plan. The cabin sides need to be moved out more in my design, so they can slope inward. This makes it harder for breaking waves to bash them in. I hope you will also notice that the skipper will be surrounded by lockers. These are necessary to keep all the gear in place. There is no room for a second person. Not even for day sailing. Your boat would be similarly limited.

    As a general principle, the heavier an object is, the lower it needs to be stowed in the boat. Notice where I assigned the heavy ground tackle. It is nowhere near the bow, where it will be used. On the open sea, it is expected to help as ballast. The same goes for the water bottles, canned food, and even the skipper (who will strap himself down in survival conditions).

    The low stowage of the heavy objects, combined with the high sides, along with the denser than water keel, will help assure the boat will right itself reliably after a capsize.

    A boat this size can be expected to be capsized again and again on the open sea. The mast support system needs to be engineered to deal with this reality.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Feb 27, 2012
  13. WestVanHan
    Joined: Aug 2009
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    Location: Vancouver

    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    Because we don't want to read about someone we know ...YOU...being lost at sea in a dangerous boat.

    Coast Guard personnel risk (and lose) their lives trying to save fools out in boats and weather they shouldn't be out in.

    Keeping one more boat out of trouble means one less crew risking their lives.
  14. Mr Efficiency
    Joined: Oct 2010
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    Location: Australia

    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    "12-foot passage-maker" is a contradiction in itself.

  15. padilac
    Joined: Feb 2012
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    Location: Østfold, Norway

    padilac Junior Member

    Hi. I have to say I admire your will to go the long hard & dangerous way to be boating. I do not have a lot of skill to offer, but I like the look of your boat for protected shores and some alonetime.

    Was I to learn by doing myself I would buy/trade/get a small, old hull that has broken so many wannabe boaters allready to be almost free for the hauling away, and use the money and time saved on refitting & saling the ugliest boat on the water. Resale value would be next to nothing, so there is really little I could do to mess up my investment in my trialing & erroring. If you look at some of the succsessful microcruisers in here, you will find that it takes more time, money & spousal frustration to get to the water than you would think possible. Me, I'd rather learn sailing in most of that time.

    Best of luck to you, and fair winds

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