How to make money with boats vs. Google

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by yachtwork, Jan 28, 2010.

  1. yachtwork
    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 45
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 57
    Location: Vava 'u Tonga

    yachtwork Junior Member

    About five years ago I wrote the book "How to make money with boats". It's a book for dreamers that explains in detail 50 methods of earning a living from a boat. It covers everything from welding, chartering, methods for the crew and kids to earn a living while traveling and even treasure hunting from a yacht.

    All was good and the books trickled out the door, till one day I started noticing I was receiving more email questions about the contents of the book than books were selling. It was then I found that Google Books had picked up "How to make money with boats" and re-published it online.

    How can Google republish copyrighted material? I wondered myself and found this question is the subject of a large lawsuit against Google that might conclude this month.

    The crux of the lawsuit is it appears Google might (probably will) take control of ALL published material that has an expired copyrights and somehow thousands of other books also, including "How to make money with boats".

    Thus, I have posted "How to make money with boats" online for free. I'll paste the table of contents below. The full book is broke up into chapters and can be seen at-

    Yes, I'm sorry that is a charter boat site in Tonga and it's also the easiest place for me to post. Use discernment to only click on the "How to make money with boats" tab, or the "Free Reports" tab.

    Look at the toolbar on the left for "How to make money with boats" and click on the button. This will bring up the book sections. Click on any section and the text will show up. Eventually I'll get around to cleaning up the text and adding photos. Till then it's just the raw text, but it's all information that some might find useful.

    Lastly if anyone has any other tricks for earning a living while cruising and would be willing to share please send me a little write up and I'll be happy to include it



    Table of Contents:

    Rules for Running 50 Onboard Businesses 16
    Every Business listed is ‘Tried and Tested’ 16
    The Boat is Your Mobile Work Platform 17
    Doing it Well, The Real Trick 17
    Most Advertising is Word of Mouth 17
    Third World vs. First World 18
    The South African Attitude Contingent 19
    Why Yachts Return to the First World 19
    It’s All Possible Due to GPS 20
    Picking your working location 21
    A Constant Flow of Traveling Yachts 21
    Ability to import specialty items 21
    Comfortable Location the disabled yacht’s Family 22
    Safe Moorings or Harbor to Store Boats 22
    Support from the City of Choice 22
    Machine Shops 22
    Airport 22
    Traveling in Taxi Hell 23
    Learning the lingo 25
    Hemorrhaging Money 26
    Tourniquet Time 27
    Plan for the tourniquet 27
    Immediate Shutdown 28
    Tips for staying on the job 28
    Work according to cyclone season 30
    The Wonderful World of Dry backing 31
    The Lifestyle 31
    Dry backing it 31
    Mexican Illegal Alien “How to Work in the USA” Comic Book 31
    Categories of Drybacks 32
    Working for other Yachties 32
    Third World? 32
    Working Locally for Local Wages and the Tourist Trade 32
    Working for the first world while living in the third world 32
    What about Immigration? 33
    In Reality 33
    Keeping out of trouble 34
    Get Legal 34
    Look Like a Yachtie 34
    Don’t Take the Job of a Local 34
    Don’t be the Last Boat Working 35
    Turncoats and how to deal with them 35
    People are Working Everywhere, it’s Your Decision 36
    True Story-This really happened to me 36
    Don’s true story 38
    The Moral 39
    A case study in keeping a low profile 41
    Case Study Two in keeping a low profile 42
    Keeping your family Happy- The real challenge! 44
    Skiff 44
    Dinner 44
    Sunday is our day 44
    Wednesday dinner 44
    Allow the crew to work 45
    Bring home the story 45
    Get them working on a boat project 45
    Go cruising 45
    Pull the plug 45
    Build a career together 45
    Listen to their needs 46
    Accessing a boat’s potential to support your voyage from thirty yards 46
    Hailing Port 46
    The rest of the boat 47
    Ma and Pa 47
    Double Dipper 48
    Delivery Teams 49
    Charter Boats 49
    Scammers 50
    Working for the heavy drinker 50
    Lost His Course Boat Bum 50
    Advertising and getting the first job 51
    Your business Card 51
    The CD boat card 51
    Music CD Advertising Card 52
    Boat Sign 52
    Flags 53
    Boat Agents 53
    Locating the agent 54
    What to Charge 54
    Give Yourself a 20% Raise 55
    Getting Paid 55
    T&M vs. Bid and Daily Pay 55
    Cash on the Barrel Head, and Currency Exchange 56
    PayPal and Visa Card 56
    Bid Pay 56
    Trading 56
    Conclusion 57
    The Difficult Customer 57
    Pro Call Back Artist AKA Scammer 57
    Just Can’t Be Satisfied 58
    How to identify the difficult Customer from the Start 58
    Tips for keeping long hours without upsetting the paying customer 58
    Save the Day Once a Day 59
    Tech Support Tips for techs 59
    Getting the customer his due warranty 60
    Tips for getting warranty service 62
    A true warranty story from the docks of hell 62
    Labor Tithing 67
    Cargo Donation 67
    A True Story 68
    Types of Jobs 69
    Work that can be done for other yachts, 69
    Work that can be done off your boat for the locals or tourists 69
    Selling the product back to your first world country. 69
    Kids and crew business 69
    Six on Six Off 69
    Moving Boats Around for PROFIT! 70
    The Delivery Game 70
    Creating the Roar 70
    How to Charge 70
    Port Day Fee 71
    Half Down, Half on Completion 71
    Max Wind 71
    Specialty Deliveries 71
    Mechanically Challenged Vessels and how to deal with them 71
    Working the Racing circuit 71
    Rough and tumble leg 71
    Insurance Deliveries 72
    Manufacturer Delivery Crew 72
    Late Season Delivery Team 72
    First Time Cruiser Crew Deliveries 72
    Personal gear to take 73
    Tools 74
    The Peli Package 74
    Foul Weather Gear 74
    Protecting Yourself 74
    The Wonderful World of Chartering 75
    Day Charters 75
    Locating Your Paying Guests 75
    Occupancy Aboard 76
    Shade and Seating 76
    Dock Greeter and Starting the Day 76
    Restroom, Rout Planning, and Getting Home 76
    Open Bar 77
    Sunset Sail 77
    How Much Can You Make? 77
    Chartering overnight 79
    Specialty Charters 79
    Crossing Borders 80
    Conclusion 80
    Working aboard a private yacht 80
    Engineer 80
    Captain 81
    Steward 81
    Chef 81
    Dealing with the super rich 83
    Tips for dealing with the super rich: 84
    Delivery/Sale/Buying on Spec 86
    Method 2 87
    Method 3 88
    Seven Special Boat Purchase Money Makers: 88
    Trading Cargo 89
    What to take small time 89
    Bringing it back to the boat, Things That Worked 90
    Buying Sewing Machines 91
    Computer Sales 91
    Then We Tried Boat Gear 92
    Someone Who Was Making It Pay 92
    Sail Boat Designed for Cargo Carrying 92
    Landing Craft 93
    Picking a Rout 93
    Using shipping containers to move your cargo 94
    Work as an agent 94
    Treasure hunting 96
    Salvage 98
    I have to be honest here… 98
    The Salvage of the Flying Fish and Rescuing the crew of Sunrise 100
    My Turn 105
    Part 2, making a new rig out of the old 108
    Part 3 Mistaken Identity and Another Boat on the Reef 111
    Moral 117
    Sewing, Sail Repair, Canvas Work, and the Mighty Pfaff 130 118
    Sail Repair 118
    The machine you need anyway 118
    Sail Repair, not Sail Making 119
    The First Stocking Up 119
    Materials Needed 119
    How to Purchase Sail Materials on the Cheap 119
    Layout Space 120
    Typical Repairs and Re-cuts 120
    The clew has torn completely out of the sail 120
    Adding a Cringle/Grommet 120
    Clew Patch Pulled Loose 121
    A seam has split luff to leach on a main sail or jib 122
    The sail chafed, or caught on something while sailing and then ripped. 122
    Canvas Sun Hats 124
    Making Courtesy Flags 125
    Long Life Flag 125
    Canvas Making/Repair 126
    The Mighty Pfaff 130 Sewing Machine, the heart of the operation 127
    The Legend 127
    How Much to Pay 127
    Things to Look For Before Purchasing a Pfaff 130 127
    Pfaff 130 Options 128
    Shipping a Sewing Machine 128
    Cleaning the Pfaff 130 129
    Turbo Charging the Motor 129
    Buying the Turbo Motor Wholesale 129
    Push Start 129
    Correcting Pfaff 130 problems 129
    Tension Problems 130
    Skipping Stitches: 130
    Balling of thread under material: 130
    How to Time a Sewing Machine anchored at a tropical island 131
    Symptoms of out of time machine 131
    How a Sewing Machine Works 131
    Marking the Needle Arm 131
    Timing the Needle Arm 131
    The Final Timing Check 132
    Pfaff 130 Conclusion 132
    Part IV 133
    Diesel Engine Tech, Engine Work, Engine Changes 133
    Repair vs. Trouble Shooting 134
    Special Diagnostic Tools 134
    Diagnostic Tool Tips 134
    Coolant System Pressure Test— 136
    Hand Held Tachometer— 136
    Oil pressure gauge, Low Pressure Gauge/Vacuum gauge— 136
    Mechanics Stethoscope— 137
    Feeler Gauges and Digital Calipers— 137
    AC/DC Clamp Amp- 137
    Digital Muli-Meter 138
    Dad Says 139
    Engine Alignments- 140
    Marbles in the gearbox? 141
    Regularly Scheduled Engine Maintenance 142
    Diesel Fuel Polishing 143
    One Week Engine Change 146
    Buy New, DON’T REBUILD! 146
    The Biggest Secret, Measure before you pull the old engine 147
    The Magic Measure Technique 147
    Simple Now that you know 147
    Price Beater 148
    The Rest of the Fit 148
    Lifting the Old Engine 149
    Commonly Asked Engine Change Questions: 149
    Q. What is this all going to cost 149
    Q. Does and engine change ever take longer than ten days? 150
    Q. Does the boat have to be hauled for an engine change? 150
    Conclusion 150
    Offshore Engine Check-Engine Analysis 152
    Technician 18 Point Engine Inspection Checklist. 152
    Part V 155
    Working Metals 155
    Making the big bucks as a welder 155
    Your welding machine 156
    The welder you already have 156
    The BIG money PTO Mount 158
    Mount designee 159
    Base Plate 159
    Marking and drilling the holes 159
    Making and designee of the Bracket 160
    Struts 160
    Making a turn buckle tensioning arm 161
    Begin with a Half Inch or larger Turnbuckle 162
    Automatic Tensioning arm 162
    Automatic Tensioning arm 163
    Making and mounting the second drive pulley 164
    Pros of buying the marine high output alternator 166
    Pros of buying off the shelf 166
    What alternator to buy 167
    Small Case 167
    Medium Case 167
    Large Case 168
    Alternator conclusion 168
    What is a three-step regulator? Why should we have one or sell one to a customer. 170
    What Regulator to use? 171
    High Tech- 171
    Low Tech- 171
    Combination Regulator Upgrade and back up Regulator 171
    Custom Aluminum Skiff Building 172
    Plywood designees can be built in Aluminum 172
    Carry a Set of Stock Plans, Modify to Fit the Boat 173
    Welding Machine and Tools Needed 173
    Materials Needed 174
    Building Space 174
    The Whole Boat Builder 174
    Shore Based Welders 174
    Aluminum projects 175
    Rail Welding, With Added Security Locks 176
    Welding Gear Needed 177
    Polishing 178
    Polishing tips 178
    Conclusion 179
    Oxy Acetylene 180
    Lessons Learned 180
    A Better Idea Oxy/Propane 180
    Gear Needed for Oxy/Propane 180
    Map Gas 180
    Big Money Exhaust manifold and Elbow 181
    Copper pipe shelving 182
    A true story of Billy’s welder 184
    Part VI 186
    Marine Electrician, and Electrical Work 186
    Electrical Panel Upgrade 189
    Building Wind/Water Chargers 191
    Generator Specs 191
    Rewinding a car alternator for wind charging 192
    Trolling Attachment 192
    Antenna man 193
    Installing alarm Systems 194
    Computer Guru or Upgrades 195
    Pactor Upgrade 195
    Yacht Internet Connection 195
    Marine Carpenter 197
    Interior Work 197
    Adjusting the interior after an engine change 197
    Wood Mast Repair 198
    Arranging your Job 198
    Big Money Specialty Jobs 198
    Ron’s Great Work Table 198
    Mast Stepping 199
    Be Careful What You Wish For… 202
    A Mast Stepping Encounter 202
    Driving a mast down the road 204
    My First Mast Stepping 205
    Chart Printing and Trading 206
    Laying Cork Decks 207
    Getting Rich Building a Virtual Marina 208
    A Virtual Marina? 209
    The Plan 209
    Work with the Locals 209
    Mooring Field Grid 210
    Dinghy Dock 210
    Building and setting a mooring 210
    Moving the Mooring 210
    Mooring Designee 211
    Lay Out the Mooring Field 211
    Keep Building and Add Services 211
    Advertising 212
    Big Money TIPS!! 212
    Sell Electricity! 212
    Easy Bahamian Moor Dock 212
    Moving vehicles to your resort 213
    Taking Over and Running a Private Resort 213
    Look for Unkempt Grounds 213
    Collecting, filtering and selling vegetable oil as diesel fuel 214
    Marine Surveyor 216
    Painting custom boat names 218
    Importing Native Art Work 219
    Don’s Unique story 220
    Bottom cleaning and Boat Diver 222
    Hookah 223
    Scraping the Bottom 223
    Finding lost objects 224
    Boat Yard Bottom Jobber, and Blister Repair 225
    Blister Repair 226
    Inflatable Dinghy Repair 228
    Roaming factory rep 229
    Making-Selling Water 230
    Categorizing and keeping track of all onboard yacht systems 231
    Writing a Yacht Operators Manual or Crew Manual 233
    Mobile beach rental 235
    Part VIII 236
    Working from the boat 236
    Carving, scrimshaw, Jewry 236
    Playing Music, Busking, Teaching the art 237
    Surf Board Repair 239
    Bounty Hunter 240
    Painting portraits and Art Work 241
    Hair Dressing 242
    Equipment list: 242
    Leading Yoga, Meditation or Massage at Resorts 243
    Massage 243
    Teaching Yoga 244
    Meditation 245
    Be Careful Working at Resorts 245
    Land Speculation 245
    Teaching service staff how perform to first world standards 246
    Writing Magazine Articles 247
    Publishing and selling books 248
    Radio Producer 252
    Video Production 253
    Running Contraband 254
    High Risks 254
    The Risks Keep on Coming 254
    You Can Live Well Without the Risk 255
    It Hurts us All 255
    Joan’s True Smuggling Story 255
    Anchored Alone in the Best Time of His Life 255
    Just Sail Away he Thought 255
    Set For Life 256
    14 Kilos 256
    Head West 257
    Years Later 257
    Part IX 258
    Children and Crew Money Making Jobs 258
    Boat Ramp Bottom Job 258
    Beach Ticket Seller 259
    Bird Watching 260
    Painting Universes 261
    Kids water and fuel delivery 262
    Make Specialty Charts or Chart kits 264
    Part X 266
    Things that were fun but did not make a whole lot of money 266
    Book Binding 266
    Photo Captions 266
    Ozone De-molding of Stored Boats 266
    Selling Brownies and Cheesecake Boat to Boat 267
    Ships Clock Repair 267
    African Sandals 267
    Drying and Selling Fruit 268
    Sharpening Drill Bits 268
    Collecting and Selling Shells 268
    Collecting Tropical Birds 269
    Part XI 270
    Working Six Months On, Six Months Off 270
    Arranging the second season 270
    It’s not what you make, but what you spend 270
    Disposable Income 270
    Tricks to Taking it all Home 271
    End of Season Tricks to Make Even More MONEY 271
    Cruise Ship work 272
    National Park Concessionaire 273
    Tree Planter 274
    National Marine Fishery Observer (nmfs) 274
    Fish Processors 275
    Forest Firefighter 275
    Ski Bum 275
    Construction worker Seasonal Heavy Equipment Operator 276
    Seasonal Import Business 276
    Truck Driver 276
    Mill Shutdowns 277
    CPA Tax Man 278
    Christmas Tree Lots, and Christmas Help 278
  2. happy_red
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Preston, England

    happy_red Junior Member

    "How can Google republish copyrighted material"

    They can't - not without the copyright owners permission.

    "The crux of the lawsuit is it appears Google might ...take control"

    They won't 'take control'. They may publish works online where the copyright has expired, but anyone can do that. Other than publishing online, there is no other element of control that Google will take. They won't suddenly own the rights or anything.

    I've just had a look at the Google Books entry for your book and it is a limited preview which means anyone wanting to read the whole book still needs to buy it from somewhere. In fact, this is essentially free advertising for your book.
  3. yachtwork
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    Location: Vava 'u Tonga

    yachtwork Junior Member

    Thank you for your comments. I viewed Google books a few weeks back and the complete book was posted. I don't know what has changed now, but IF google does not wish to republish without permission then why are thousands of authors around the world suing Google?

    Yesterday was also the day when authors were supposed to make a choice for their part in the lawsuit (pasted below) I chose to list my book for free rather that get involved in any lawsuit. I find it less stressful and better for the world to post for free.

    Here are the options listed-

    Note I waited till the last day to make the decision to post the book for free.

    Google option

    # Opt out of the Google Book Settlement: If you have already opted out of the Original Settlement, and wish to remain opted out, you need not – and should not – opt out again. If you wish to opt out, your Opt Out Form must be submitted online or postmarked on or before January 28, 2010.

    # Opt back in to the Google Book Settlement: If you opted out of the Original Settlement and wish to opt back in, your Opt Back In Form must be submitted online or postmarked on or before January 28, 2010.

    # File an objection to the Amended Settlement: If you wish to object to the provisions amending the Original Settlement, your objection must be postmarked on or before January 28, 2010. You need not and should not refile your objection to the Original Settlement, which will be considered as previously filed. You may, however, withdraw your objection at any time prior to the date of the Fairness Hearing.

    I'm interested, given the choices above what would you have done?

  4. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: cruising, Australia

    masalai masalai

    Do you still sell the book, and how much? posted to Australia (ordinary airmail post) and (ordinary surface post)
  5. yachtwork
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    Location: Vava 'u Tonga

    yachtwork Junior Member

    Thank you for asking

    Thank you for asking. Boatbooks in Auckland carries the paper version and might be the best way to ship to Oz.

    or you can buy the download or paper version here-

    or you may read the complete book for free online starting at the TOC here-

    I just posted the free online version yesterday and the text will get cleaned up over the next few weeks. The PDF version has about two hundred photos.

    Thanks again for asking.

  6. happy_red
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Preston, England

    happy_red Junior Member


    My aim wasn't to dismiss your rights as copyright holder (and author). But there is a big difference between Google publishing a book on line and showing snippets of a book along with links of where to buy the book.

    As I'm not an author, I don't know all the details of the lawsuit so don't know what choice i would have made in your position. I had a quick read of the following:

    Reading this, it appears the lawsuit concerns the display of snippets of copyrighted books. I quote,
    "In response to the authors’ and publishers’ claims of copyright infringement, Google argued that its digitization of the books and display of snippets, or a few lines, of the books is permitted under the U.S. copyright law’s doctrine of 'fair use.' "

    There seems to have been some sort of settlement that was proposed in order to stop the whole thing being a lawyer enrichment programme. This will be the options you listed.

    I'm not sure what all the fuss is about to be honest. Google are not publishing the whole book, just snippets. As I said before, it constitutes free advertising really. Why you feel you need to give the book away free, I don't know. You are just doing yourself out of any potential sales. I know you said the whole book was available a few weeks ago, but are you sure this was the case? When viewing the book on Google Books, it shows links to every chapter, but when you click on the vast majority, it comes up with a message saying the page is not available for viewing. If it was available in full, then Google would be breaking copyright law, regardless of the current settlement/lawsuit.

    You ask why other authors are suing and I couldn't tell you, although at a guess, the promise of a big payout from Google springs to mind. I suppose some authors just don't like any of their work to be displayed anywhere except their own publications.

    I do believe authors should be paid for their work and will not download books, or indeed boat plans, illegally. I hope that you have many sales of your book (via Google Books or otherwise) and appreciate the effort that authors go through in order to have your work published.
  7. troy2000
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    Location: California

    troy2000 Senior Member

    "A few snippets, or a few lines?" I'm sorry, but that isn't an accurate description of what Google is doing.

    I'm not familiar with the lawsuit. But I know that on just about any boat building subject I google, I can come up with multiple pages from one book or another.

    I just googled "chapelle boat building flat bottomed" so I could use it as an example, and came up with a 63-page 'preview' of Chapelle's Boatbuilding book (yes, I counted each and every page). That's more than just a few snippets. It's almost everything in the book that relates specifically to flat-bottomed boat construction--including plans and offset tables.

    With all due apologies to the authors out there, I'll admit that I've used that 'preview' feature to death in the last couple of months, anytime I wanted specific information of one sort or another. I'll miss it if it goes, but I certainly won't have any reasonable grounds to complain about losing it.

    Speaking of apologies, I'd say you owe this gentleman and anyone else involved in the lawsuit an apology, for assuming their prime motivation was simply a venal desire for an undeserved 'big payout' from Google. I think they have a very legitimate issue.
  8. happy_red
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Preston, England

    happy_red Junior Member

    Fair enough.
    I only looked at the book in the title of the thread and didn't specifically count pages. There didn't seem to be any significant content there - just a few pages here and there, but I suppose that Scott as the author may find that number too much. Certainly, other authors may find that the content published represents the significant content of the book.

    I don't know really whether the sheer size of the 'snippets' are balanced out by the, essentially free advertising that is being given by Google with, as I said previously, links to buy the book. That is really up to Scott and the other authors to decide for themselves.

    In the case of Scott's book, I didn't think that anyone could gleam enough from the previews to consider it enough not to buy the book - if they want 50 ways to make money, they may get 3 or 4 from the preview. Is that enough to give the book away free? I don't think so. Scott obviously does and I think he may do himself out of a few sales by giving it away.

    My thoughts on a motivation for litigation are hardly cause for an apology. Being English, we are finally catching up to the great American tradition of suing people for the most menial of things. Generally, the impression I get is someone out to make money. Of course, that isn't always the case, but seems the easy way to do things now.

    I took the following from the Google Books site which may explain why you can see Chappelle's book and others you've looked at (are they Partner Program members):

    "Many of the books in Google Books come from authors and publishers who participate in our Partner Program. For these books, our partners decide how much of the book is browsable -- anywhere from a few sample pages to the whole book.

    For books that enter Google Books through the Library Project, what you see depends on the book's copyright status. We respect copyright law and the tremendous creative effort authors put into their work. If the book is in the public domain and therefore out of copyright, you can page through the entire book and even download it and read it offline. But if the book is under copyright, and the publisher or author is not part of the Partner Program, we only show basic information about the book, similar to a card catalog, and, in some cases, a few snippets -- sentences of your search terms in context. The aim of Google Books is to help you discover books and assist you with buying them or finding a copy at a local library. It's like going to a bookstore and browsing - with a Google twist."

    Having looked at Google Books recently, books can fall into one of four different categories: No preview available, Snippet View, Limited preview and full access. The Snippet View is for copyrighted books that are not part of the Partner Program and nothing can be seen except if a search is done, then a few sentences containing the search term are displayed. It certainly suggests that both Scott's book and the books that you have been previewing are members of the Partner Program.

    Anyway, Scott's original point was Google publishing his whole book and taking control of it, therefore forcing him to give his book away free. Google are not publishing his whole book, they have no control over his book and there is no justifiable reason why he would need to give the book away himself.

    I'd hazard a guess that authors are losing more money from garage sales, flea markets, used book stores, Amazon Marketplace and other online used book sellers (as well as forum members giving the information to others on forums). Of course these people can't be easily sued, so best to have a go at Google instead as they are an easy target.

    Maybe I am perceiving this all wrong, but I find it is all too easy to see Google as the bad guy when in reality I would guess that Scott may have lost zero sales due to their preview system and probably gained a few sales from people finding the preview interesting and following the links to online sellers to buy a copy.
  9. troy2000
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    First of all, you're accusing Scott of being a liar on very little grounds. If he says his whole book was available a few weeks ago, I see no reason to disbelieve him. That invalidates about 90% of your post.

    Secondly, I believe the Brit's were the ones who perfected the practice of turning the legal system into a for-profit venture. Some of our original 13 colonies actually forbade the practice of law for profit, because of their experience with the British legal system. Don't throw stones.

    Finally, do you have such a comic-book view of the world that you approach everything as a good guy vs. bad guy question? Maybe no one is a bad guy here. Maybe the authors have a reasonable interest in controlling their works; maybe Google is honestly trying to provide access and encourage book sales (and make money).

    So maybe the lawsuit is a way of getting Google's attention, and pushing them to do a better job of balancing their business objectives against the rights of the authors involved.

    If you believe the authors stand to make a windfall out of the situation, I think you're sadly mistaken. I doubt there's enough money involved per author to make any noticeable difference in their monthly budgets, much less change their lifestyles. And your cynicism concerning their motives leads me to suspect you may be judging others by yourself.
    1 person likes this.
  10. happy_red
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    happy_red Junior Member

    Judging others by myself would be interesting but I have never brought a lawsuit against anyone, for profit or any other reason. I go to work, earn a living and dream of building a boat out of wood. I buy boat building books and check out boat building and boat design forums for information. I've looked at Google Books, but never really found enough information available from the preview. Maybe I haven't looked hard enough. I have enough books to keep me reading for a good few years.

    I don't know the history of lawsuits for profit, but suspect a nation that allows a lawsuit against McDonalds for making someone obese is hardly in a position, 13 colonies or not, of taking the high ground. The day of 'no win, no fee' is well and truly here in Britain, years after its introduction to the US. Whether it is a US or UK invention is rather superfluous though when, as I have pointed out, the 'authors guild' are suing Google rather than the countless "garage sales, flea markets, used book stores, Amazon Marketplace and other online used book sellers" who are responsible for more lost sales to publishers than Google's snippets or Partner Program previews - an issue you've managed to avoid with your anti-colonial diatribe.

    I have certainly not called Scott a liar and never said that his book could not be seen a few weeks ago. 90% of my argument revolves around the Google Partner Program and Scott's book as it can be seen on Google Books as of the point at which I started responding (and now as I've just checked). If Scott says his book was available in full a few weeks ago, I have no reason to disbelieve him. I did ask earlier whether the whole book was available, or whether it appeared that way unless each page was checked. It may be that his publisher, as part of the Partner Program, allowed the whole book to be available for a limited period, followed by a limited number of pages. Who knows? Certainly not you or me.

    Whether his book was published in full by Google, or whether that was his perception because he didn't check which pages he could see, is neither here nor there. His book is not published in full if you look now, therefore there is no need for him to give it away free. As the books author, he should rightly be rewarded for his work, but in this case, it is his choice to give it away for nothing, not Google's.

    You are correct in that the Authors Guild lawsuit may be a way of getting Google's attention and maybe my view of the lawsuit is a bit simplistic. I'm not sure I suggested a 'windfall' from the lawsuit would change anyone's lifestyle, though the Authors Guild is a small subset of authors - not all of them - who may or may not see a cash cow at the end of the day. Maybe I'm just a bit cynical in my old age. If they have a genuine grievance, then a court of law will find Google guilty and I'll have to backtrack big style. Until then, they are 'innocent until proven guilty', a phrase that should be as meaningful in California as Lancashire.

    Sticking with Scott's book. As I have already pointed out, it is NOT available in full on Google Books (have a look), Google do not control the book (they don't own the copyright) and anyone who wants to read it will have to buy it, or not give the author any money for it by getting it free from the authors website (his choice).

    If the Authors Guild win their case, I'll have to eat my words regarding their reasons for litigation. If Scott comes back on here and says that Google are publishing his book in full or his publishers are not part of the Partner Program and his book income has dried up due to Google, then I'll also have to change my stance.

    Until then, I will remain very cynical of the 'big publicity' lawsuits - as will a large percentage of both the American and British population.
  11. yachtwork
    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 45
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 57
    Location: Vava 'u Tonga

    yachtwork Junior Member

    Thank you for posting

    Thank you for keeping the post going.

    A couple notes.

    I checked on Google Books yesterday and was able to pick any section of "How to make money with boats" and read it. I only tried a couple times but they seemed to still be posted.

    The issue was not so much the posting by Google, but that the lawsuit demanded authors to "opt in" or "opt out" by 28 Jan 10. In other words I had to make a decision based on options given to me by a pack of lawyers and Google. That means research, time, effort, and consultation to make an informed decision.

    It did not take long to decide to give the book away for free, or at least post it online for free. That saves all the research and arguments and allows me to focus on what I enjoy doing and that is playing with boats.

    So, "How to make money with boats" is now online for free, and I'm about half way through correcting the headings and spacing so it's easy to read.

    To me that is for the greater good of all involved and prevents lawyers from receiving any money.

    Seem right.

    Thanks again for reading.

  12. troy2000
    Joined: Nov 2009
    Posts: 1,743
    Likes: 170, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2078
    Location: California

    troy2000 Senior Member

    You seem to be uncommonly trusting of large organizations like Google, and uncommonly cynical about the motives and integrity of individuals. Why are you so willing to front-load an issue in favor of the rich and powerful? Why do you jump to the conclusion that the authors are motivated solely by greed? Do you think Google has some special virtues that smaller outfits and individuals don't?

    You aren't the first Brit I've run into who automatically jumps to the smarmy assumption that important people or large companies are right, and those who are taking them on have no business challenging their betters. Maybe it has to do with some assumption that God rewards the deserving, so the more successful you are the more deserving you are, or something. I dunno. But it strikes me as a bit of a suck-up.

    I just googled 'How to make money with boats', and on Google Books was able to access the first 60 pages, illustrations and all, before I gave it up. So I'll end this pointless exchange the same way I started it:

    "A few snippets, or a few lines?" I don't think so.

    edit: I will respond to this bit of nonsense on my way out: countless "garage sales, flea markets, used book stores, Amazon Marketplace and other online used book sellers"...are responsible for more lost sales to publishers than Google's snippets or Partner Program previews.

    Do you understand the difference between a lawfully owned second-hand copy of a book, and illegally obtained and/or reproduced copies? I can sell my old books anytime I want, anywhere I want. But I can't legally scan them, then put them online and make them accessible to the whole world for fun or profit, unless I own the copyright or they're in the public domain.
  13. happy_red
    Joined: Dec 2009
    Posts: 6
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 29
    Location: Preston, England

    happy_red Junior Member

    Yes I do understand the difference between " lawfully owned second-hand copy of a book". Google can reproduce parts of a book (out of copyright or part of the Partner Program etc) legally as can a seller sell a second hand copy of a book legally. As I said, until proven guilty... Or is this another Guantanamo - Google are clearly guilty, so... (See how easy it is introduce national stereotypes?)

    Answer this, is Scott's book part of the Partner Program? Moreover, has Scott's publisher given permission for Google to publish the number of pages it has? This is something you've avoided answering in every condescending reply you have made so far.

    You aren't the first Brit I've run into who automatically jumps to the smarmy assumption that important people or large companies are right

    No, I'm sure you know many Brits and I'm sure they all wax lyrical about large corporations! I'm sure, compared to all the Californians you know, that they are all smarmy too. Because, of course, Californians (or maybe Americans) are all perfect citizens of the world! Christ, most of the people that us Brits find repellent usually end up touring America as 'important people', so please, let's stop the 'we are better than you' nonsense. I'm not impressed by large organisations, only by their inherent behaviour. For instance, I wouldn't trust Microsoft in a million years due to past experience. I give Google more leeway due to past experience..

    Congratulations on Googling "How to make money with boats". I did the same. here's the result:
    First 14 pages are front cover and table of contents.
    The next 50 pages are in sequence and printed in full.
    Pages 65 to 294 cannot be read.

    Are you seriously telling me that a book that purports to tell us 50 ways to make money from boats will do so in the first 50 pages after the table of contents and that pages 65 to 294 are all ********? Get real! Anyone who wants the core information from this book is not going to get it from the Google Books preview.

    Do you think Scott should give his book away for free based on that preview?

    Scott's book, as published by Google Books, is nothing more than a whopping great big free advert with a load of free links to places to legally buy the book.

    So, I'll end this post with this: "A few snippets, or a few lines?"
    No, I suggest this is a Partner Program book with a preview of 50 pages, out of 295, that can be previewed. Free advert - nothing more.

    And this: "...some assumption that God rewards the deserving..."
    Only if you believe there is some all powerful being, sitting on a cloud and thinking the only real nation is the US.
    Personally, I am grounded in reality. (Again, see how easy it is to sink to stereotypes?)

    I could add that you are not the first American who thinks he can tell the rest of the world how to think, but that would not only be misleading and stereotypical, but completely irrelevant to the argument.
  14. Zed
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 232
    Likes: 13, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 179
    Location: Australia

    Zed Senior Member

    Shiraz, now that is a happy red! What about a bottle, Australian of course, to knock the stress levels down a few points.

    Never thought I'd be on the POM's side!

    What he said!

  15. troy2000
    Joined: Nov 2009
    Posts: 1,743
    Likes: 170, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2078
    Location: California

    troy2000 Senior Member

    If you understand the difference, why did you bring up second-hand books as though they're relevant to the legal issues?

    Why are you assuming Google is innocent until proven guilty, but assuming the plaintiffs have no legal grounds for complaint and are motivated simply by greed? you're prejudging the issue in favor of Google.

    I believe you're the one who originally introduced nationality into the debate. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. And although America bashing is a quite popular sport nowadays, it doesn't lessen my contempt of you for resorting to it because you had no cogent argument.
    I don't believe Scott's publisher can give away his legal rights as an author without his permission or even knowledge. Do you have something that proves otherwise?
    Again, you're the one who decided to turn this into an America-bashing thread. Now you've apparently decided to narrow it down to California. Unfortunately for your arguments, neither has anything to do with the legal issues in dispute.
    Are you seriously telling me that 60-plus pages of a 294-page book, in sequence and including illustrations, meets the definition of 'snippets'?
    That is his decision, and has no bearing on whether Google has the legal right to print his entire book--or major swaths of it--online without his permission.
    you offer nothing but pure speculation that Scott's book might be involved in the Partner Program. Do you really believe his publisher could give away his rights like that without even notifying him, much less obtaining his permission?
    I repeat: you were the one who originally sank to turning this debate into a diatribe against the US and its legal system. And you've returned to it repeatedly, as though your opinion that Americans are scum somehow negates Scot's legal rights as an author.
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