No MAS! ;)

Ok, I have an actual question about MAS infures and infucure product mix ratios.

Look at this link:

http://www.masepoxies.com/public/index.cfm?fuseaction=prodbrws.publicdetail&productid=69473

Now, am i crazy, or do they give two different mix ratios on the same page here??
First, it says 100 parts resin to 30 parts hardener.

Down a bit further, it gives 3:1, which is 33.3333 parts to 100, correct?

I'm about to point out their brilliant technical ability again, but I feel like it has to be me who is the brain dead one this time.

So is a 3:1 mix ratio 30 parts to 100 parts or 33.33 parts to 100 parts? Need a sanity check.

 

of course 1/3 is 0.333, 30/100 is 0.300, so they are different. Now, most of their resins are 2:1, so they may just be stating 3:1 to make sure people realize the different mix ratio. I'm not sure if the difference between .3 and .333 matters for the curing of the resin.

 

Well, it's a difference of 4.2oz of hardener for every gallon mixed. I mix many gallons per infusion. That's a 10% difference in the amount of hardener added!

These are the same guys that came on this forum, first from an account associated with MAS and called me dumb. Next, they came on with a brand new troll account (never used since that day) and hassled me and called me dumb and inexperienced for like 5 pages.

These guys are really something else. Technically inept, highly inaccurate (off by 10% on their website!) and they come on to forums with fake accounts to call their customer stupid. Wow... just wow.

 

yep pretty poor/inaccurate information on that count...

Its even printed on the bottle 3:1... and then their MIX RATIO STATEMENT, clearly quotes 100:30... very poor considering the IMPORTANCE of such a critical part of information...

Another thing i dont like on that page, it gives the pot life @ "ambient temp"... WTF? too bad if its summer or winter or florida or washington state huh?

 

Oh boy, don't get me started... Ha ha ha

The fact that they refuse to supply me with temperature dependent information regarding how much accelerator to add to vary the kick rate over a range of temperatures was my complaint in the "mas not worth it" thread.

Every epoxy manufacturer except Mas supplies information to vary kick rate for different temperatures. Not these guys.

When you call and ask for it, they promise they will get it to you, then just vanish.

Here is the other thread where they call me stupid and say it's technically impossible to produce temperature specific curing information (and called me dumb, inexperienced, used a fake troll account, etc...):


http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/ma...-hardener-use-various-temperatures-41385.html

"Uffer" was the fake account they set up to hassle me with after I responded to the first post they made where they said it was technically impossible to provide temperature specific info. (i responded by showing them how to do it)

 

They must not have enough demand from other customers or from potential customers to provide the infusion test data to pay the rate you were seeking to provide this for them.

A second strange thing on that web page: "It is sold in 4, 15, 30, and 45 gallons of INFU-RES, and matching 1.75, 5, 10, 15 gallons of INFU-CURE"

 

FMS, the $6k was a joke rate. Lost my patience by then.

It is the same price they charge for a 45 gallon drum of resin..

 

You do need to ask if the difference matters. None of the epoxys that I have used will ever tell you what the limits of the mix ratio are. Is 100/30 ok at 100/35 or even 100/40 (similar question on the low side)? There is some variation. First question is will it ever harden, second is if it will have the proper strength. No idea myself.

Not epoxy, but I just used some automotive clear coat polyurethane and I accidently mixed almost twice as much hardener as specified. Worked just fine, but now I don't have enough hardener to finish off the resin, oh well.

 

In defense of MAS

Catbuilder,

I have been using MAS epoxy for probably 10 years or so. I was ready to infuse a canoe on a Sunday afternoon and needed an answer re: ratios and called the help number to leave a message, expecting a return call in a few days.

To my shock, Anthony picked up the phone and immediately clarified the proper ration for my project. They have helped me with infusion advice more times that I can count times.


My back of the envelope math is that the difference between 1/3 and 300/100 is 3.33%, not 10%.

MAS products are not the cheapest. The non-blush aspect is worth it to me. I'm happy to pay what they ask.


Best of luck with you build.


Allan

 

So you infuse canoes, huh?

Check your math again. You got it wrong. A gallon contains 128oz. The "1" part of a 3:1 ratio, using 128 oz as the "3" part is 42.6 oz of hardener to add to the gallon. You with me so far? Now, in a 100:30 mix, using 128oz as the "100" part, the resulting "30" part is 38.4oz of hardener to add to the gallon.

Still following this?

42.6oz of hardener minus 38.4oz of hardener is 4.2oz of hardener - which is a 10% difference in the amount of hardener to add.

Their error is a 10% error in the amount of hardener to add. Not very confidence inspiring.

Anthony sure loves picking up that phone and shooting the breeze, doesn't he? Tell me, did he supply you with temperature specific cure times and/or amounts of accelerator to add at different temperatures like every other company does, Uffer?



The point is, these guys are <removed>. They don't follow through on support promises (it's all talk and hot air with no data) and make blatant, 10% mixing ratio mistakes right on the website.

If you can't trust them to be accurate with mix ratios and check their work as published on their website, how can you trust them to mix the components of their product properly without mistakes at the factory?

$6000 for a shorted 55 gallon drum (they only put 45 gallons in the drum) from a company that gets the mix ratio wrong right on the website? No thanks.

 

I used their products a few years ago, and always had left of one or another. I started checking and they were not filled properly. They use a 3 to 1 ratio, but it should work fine at 100 TO 30. However, when building boats we would test each barrel and made samples of each and made our on tables. Note amount of epoxy in the mix will greatly vary curing time.

 

For really high tech work it would be best to ask for the certificates of conformity of the batchnumbers received.

On that it should state the epoxy equivalent measured. (usually in the 180 range or so) and the amine equivalent measured (usually in the 90 range, but can be way lower, or even higher). From these 2 numbers you can calculate the actual mixing ratio.

Example (keeping the numbers simple)

resin spec:
epoxy equivalent 185-195. (190 measured)

hardener spec:
amine equivalent 90-100 (95 measured)

Mixing ratio: 95/190*100 = 50 (makes 100:50, or 2:1)

Of course the epoxy equivalent and/or amine equivalent can be somewhat different. The deviations I used are pretty common, and also the numbers used.

Lets see what happens if we run into a batch that is on the end of the specs:

90/195*100 = 46 --> makes 100:46 instead of 100:50.

I must also say that there is a certain margin for error, which hardly influences the mechanical properties. A margin of 10% up or down usually is somewhat acceptable (which means 100:30 can be 100:27 or 100:33). But I prefer to be spot-on.

Keep in mind too much hardener influences water resistance and carbamation problems, and too much resin can make the stuff brittle.

 

You are so correct but I wonder how many actually do this.

 

About no-one. Boatbuilder not at all, but even in the more high-tech industries where I supply, no-one is doing it. Yet it is so simple.

I also have a table in excel which shows about all resins horizontally, and the hardeners vertically, and in the table the mixing ratios between them. That way I can quickly see the mixing ratios between different epoxies and hardeners. You always run into the occasions where you are mixing different systems, and at least when the mixing ratio is right, the stuff will cure.

 

Having used perhaps a thousand gallon of epoxies for building, fixing and fairing boats, I would say every batch bought is different from another. Many years ago I tried to go cheaper and found some epoxies that didn't work properly at all. Back then I got into habit of making tests and let them cure before using it on boat. I also find some epoxies to be not worth being cheaper. My supplier is trying to sell me Chinese Epoxy, to which I said, " I will buy in 20 years after I know it doesn't break apart in the middle of the ocean." Not worth it to save $5 a gallon. The trick with epoxies is find a manufacturer you like and get some kind of volume agreement with them. Talk to them a lot, and even if you buy 10 or 20 gallons a year, pretend your buying a hundred. Get the discount and info, but don't save on quality.