How does he do it? Dashew's new 77 foot powerboat cheaper to run than Beowulf.

Discussion in 'Powerboats' started by timothy22, Jan 6, 2009.

  1. apex1

    apex1 Guest


    1000 baby, is not thousands, as you posted! And BTW Dashew said clearly that there was a difference between these boats, costwise!
    We would not have this thread if not.

    You don´t know much (if any) about sailing, and the Forum is well aware of that. But you tell us when the water boils!?
     
  2. goodwilltoall
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    Location: nation of Ohio

    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    Marshmat,

    For $2-5 million a good performance is a expected and as you say not available for most. Without a doubt when comparing it against other $2 million boats, its a winner, but Windhorse type performance can be achieved more cost effectively.
     
  3. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Oh, well, is it expected?

    Go to your next marina and search the good performer amongst the 2 to 5 million boats!

    Build a boat like Windhorse and show us you achieve better performance bigmouth. BTW it is not a $2 mio boat!
     
  4. Scott Jamieson
    Joined: Nov 2011
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    Location: British Columbia Canada

    Scott Jamieson Junior Member

    Hello Sailors,

    Ohh the cost of sail vs power.

    I own a 1990 65 Macgregor Pilothouse hull #39. It is both a power and sailing yacht.

    - The hull exceeds ABS standards
    - It is a proven true blue water vessel
    - Very fast under sail
    - Easy to sail single handed
    - Average 9 SOG @ 7 ltrs/hr. under power (110 HP Yanmar)
    - New 10.5 ounce main, 130 genie and stay sail run 15K US funds
    - New rigging @ 10K US funds
    - Barbosa / Harkens winches are in excellent condition and original

    Banking for future maintenance/overhauls, annual maintenance and two haul outs per year excluding annual mooring dues; my annual cost is about 15K US funds. Putting that into cost / mile is difficult as some diesel engines run for 50,000 hrs and some die after 2000 pending on the correct application, usage and maintenance. A good set of sail, well maintained can go a long way pending again on ones tolenance for age. In 23 years my MacGregor 65 average annual time underway per year is around 1000 hrs. with the engine running about 20% of the time.

    The Macgregor 65 pilothouse like all true bluewater yachts has trade offs but mathematicaly is a leader for low cost to operate.

    Make no mistake, The interior trappings of a Swan or Dashew have an allure second to none and parting from such vessels is such sweet sorrow.

    Happy sailing!
     
  5. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Hmm....

    15 thousand wont get very far. I just spent 13 thousand at the yard for normal seasonal maintenance...life rafts an safety equipment, small sail repairs, antifoul, anodes, a shaft seal, sea waterpump rebuild.....
    Add in insurance, dockage , food, fuel, minor repairs , air tickets and 75 thousand might keep you on the road.
     
  6. Scott Jamieson
    Joined: Nov 2011
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    Location: British Columbia Canada

    Scott Jamieson Junior Member

    I understand costs. My shaft, engine, prop, mast and winches, radar, autopilot are all in good original condition. I'm on the second set of sails. The key to low running costs is simplicity. Dump the ac, air flush toilets, etal etal.

    It did not cost The Norsemen much to cruise the Atlantic. The key to low maintenance is do it right and do it yourself. Procrastination is good. It opens the mind to more cost effective methods of repair and or replacement. If I gave my yacht to the service manager at my marina for all that needed tending to the cost would be $50,000, annual easy but there would be no improvements over my hands on approach.

    If I had the money and trusted the repair facility I would still be hands on as I like to know my vessel thus when trouble rears its ugly head it can be easily reviewed for correction. There is a huge curve for maintenance costs. There are also people that just have to open there wallets , I guess it makes them feel good. Each to their own!

    Cheers
     
  7. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Think again...I do this for a living.
     
  8. Scott Jamieson
    Joined: Nov 2011
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    Location: British Columbia Canada

    Scott Jamieson Junior Member

    I am new to forums and will back out as negative keyboarding with 3400+ is scary
     
  9. goodwilltoall
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    MAC 65 is the best fiberglass boat ever built, tell us more about it.
     
  10. Scott Jamieson
    Joined: Nov 2011
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    Location: British Columbia Canada

    Scott Jamieson Junior Member

    Scott Jamieson

    I personally / hands on / built two steel tri-cabin power yachts, 34' & 42' from scratch for my own personal use and understand how costs can escalate. Load in good basic running gear and the rest is where it can get out of hand. With sailboats it is the same same but when sails are launched and the main engine shut down life is good. Power yachts don't have the option and can't appreciate the serenity (enjoy the passage). Never forget, sailboats are also the most sea kindly power boats in the world. Sailboats have options!

    Relating to price point, Roger MacGregor built the 65 pilot house for $150,000 base price and they came with great Yanmar engines and Barbosa / Harken running gear. My original main engine Yanmar is alive and well along with the coffee grinders! The 65 Mac Pilothouse vessel is solid layup fiberglass from woven one piece matting that runs from stem to stern. The thinnest fiberglass lay-up is 5/8" with the bow @ 1.8 inches. The keel is bolted to 3" thick solid lay up fiberglass bottom. There are four stringers running down the full length of both the port and starboard that are again an additional 3.5" solid lay-up fiberglass. All seven bulk heads are solid lay-up fiberglass with the thinnest area @.75" and thickest @ 1.2" Two bulk heads are watertight thus collision (a rouge container) at sea from the bow or stern will not present an immediate problem. Few fiberglass yachts ever built meet ABS standards and the Big Mac exceeds these stringent standards. Check it out!

    ABS (American Bureau of Shipping) approved and certified the MacGregor 65 Pilothouse structural plan. In addition, ABS staff were hired by commissioned owners to be on site at the MacGregor Yacht Corporation for construction from start to finish. ABS specifies hull thickness, bulkhead (transverse) thickness, stringer size and material strength requirements meets their standards. *ABS states: “In general, the hull is to be longitudinally framed with the deck and shell longitudinals supported by transverse web rings, transverse bulkhead or a combination of both…hard spots are to be avoided…” It must flex!

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ABS Requirement * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * MacGregor Actual
    Tensile Strength * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *18,000 psi * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *29,300 psi
    Tensile Modulus * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 1,100,000 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *1,600,000
    Shear Strength * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *11,000 psi * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *14,340 psi
    Compressive Strength * * * * * * * * * * * * * 17.000 psi * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *34,030 psi
    Compressive Modulus * * * * * * * * * * * * *1,000,000 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *1,900,000 * * **
    Flexural Strength * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 25,000 psi * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *52,860 psi
    Flexural Modulus * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *1,100,000 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *1,700,000
    *

    The money saving factor of the Mac 65 pilothouse was the base interior. I recently ripped out all the original fabric on the deck heads, bulk heads, modular walls, all the carpeting, the upholstery, foam and water fixtures. In turn replaced all better than new for 20K US. This is not a Swan or Deerfoot interior but very comfortable and a good fit for all eyes that have seen it.

    There has never been a blister on the hull (1990) and this is a credit to Roger MacGregor. They used a double spray gun that mixed exacting resin and hardener on the mating one layer at a time. Most all manufacturers must play the cored game as it is a serious price cutting point and the average consumer is more concerned with the grade of leather in the main salon.

    My hull will twist slightly, hog and sag as do all vessels in a rough sea but fiberglass woven matting (properly laid) will perform with no diminishing structual integrity. The cored hull has a combination of different materials sandwiched / bonded together with different flex points and will eventually show hair line cracks as a result thus the structual integrity of the hull will diminish more rapidly. There are many methods to manufacturing cored hulls and some last much longer than others but high quality single mat woven fiberglass lay-up to high standards such as the Roger MacGregor method, have no equal (glass related).

    When your buying a vessel as Steve Dashew said, love the look, I could not agree more. Make sure the hull and running gear are built to last or maintenance costs increase with no return, thus the hole in the water syndrome. The rest (interior, ac etal) is escalating fluff with no $ ceiling. You can change the interior but you can't change the hull construction. A lot of sailors sink copious quantities of cash into dead hulls.

    There are lots of great fiberglass cored and solid lay-up pre-owned vessels out there where the depreciation has bottomed out and need only some serious TLC. If careful, you can enjoy your prize for years and sell it for more than you paid. One such well built vessel that meets ROI (return on investment) equations with a nice interior is the Deerfoot.

    One last point on yachts, prior to buying pre-owned, make sure you can sell it for more than you plan to pay with a little TLC and wax. If your answer is negative, re-evaluate. Costs add up fast!

    Cheers!
     
  11. DennisRB
    Joined: Sep 2004
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    Location: Brisbane

    DennisRB Senior Member

    Hello Scott.

    So you own a 65 foot aux sailing boat and you only just done the sails and rigging for the first time in 23 years for the cost of $25K? Even if you done the rigging at the more usual time frame of 10 years, and added 10k for running rigging etc the cost would be $45K in 23 years.

    That is still less than $2000 a year for the sailing systems. This dwarfs the price of your $15,000 per year cost of slipping and usual maintenance as would be required by either a motor or sailing vessel. This $2000 per year is just over the price of running the engines on the Dashew for 2 days.

    I think I will stick with sail thankyou.

     
  12. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Typical yearly sail repairs are luff tapes , batten pockets and sun shields. 2 to 4 thousand euro depending on the repair. Normally I get 5 to seven years...75,000 miles from a sail. Standing rigging is the same. After 7 years or so the mast is pulled and typically so many faults are found that the whole standing rigging package is replaced. Roller furler bearings, foils or hydraulic units must be sent back to the manufacturer for service. Expensive. Gear like mast mounted electronics are particularly expensive to repair, replace. Deck equipment..a dozen winches, jammers, ball bearing blocks and sliders need to be serviced once or twice a year.

    If you correctly maintain a sailing yacht there is little cost difference between power and sail.

    Sailing burns less fuel, but fuel is a small component in overall operating cost. One reason you see many more powerboats than sailing is the cost, ease of use formula.

    A sailing yacht only outperforms power when long distances must be covered.
     
  13. DennisRB
    Joined: Sep 2004
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    Location: Brisbane

    DennisRB Senior Member

    This is absolutely not "typical" yearly maintenance for the average sailor.
     
  14. Scott Jamieson
    Joined: Nov 2011
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    Location: British Columbia Canada

    Scott Jamieson Junior Member

    Operating costs

    My MacGregor 65 home is in Vancouver British Columbia where it rains steady for 6 months a year. Fresh water is a savior to metal. The rigging should have been changed much sooner but I do not put it under stress including the sails or engines. As for maintenance on roller furlings and harken winches I do it all. I guess Vancouver has good access to everything I need. The vessel is in very good repair.
     

  15. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member


    Poop...I cover ten thousand miles per year...every year for 40 years.

    My job is boats.


    You may choose to be a gypsy and sail with junk, but this wont work with me.

    Repairs on the road are impossible or punishingly expensive..

    Im not stupid.

    You pay to play the game or stay off the water
     
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