How About No More Electric Boats?

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by DogCavalry, Mar 18, 2021.

  1. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Old Woodbutcher

    Will, your house runs on fossil fuel or nuclear fuel which has been converted into electricity unless you only buy exclusively from wind or solar producers.
     
  2. Will Gilmore
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    Will Gilmore Senior Member

    Hydro-electric, actually; from Trans-Canada.

    There is also a small wood powered power plant that sends up a plume of steam between my house and my view of Mt. Washington, but I don't think I get much benefit from there.

    But the point is, we NEED to convert to electric energy at some point.
     
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  3. BlueBell
    Joined: May 2017
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    BlueBell "Whatever..."

    Who makes all the decisions?
    The public; society.
    Marketing (Green Washing) influences that, big time.
    So, the facts really only matter in our little, minute discussion here.

    If oil went to $3000 per barrel overnight, we'd have electric cars and boats galore in no time.
     
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  4. ImaginaryNumber
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    ImaginaryNumber Imaginary Member

    How Green Are Electric Vehicles?

    It matters how the electricity is made
    Broadly speaking, most electric cars sold today tend to produce significantly fewer planet-warming emissions than most cars fueled with gasoline. The critical factor is how much of the electrical production is by coal?

    Raw materials can be problematic
    Like many other batteries, the lithium-ion cells that power most electric vehicles rely on raw materials — like cobalt, lithium and rare earth elements — that have been linked to grave environmental and human rights concerns.

    Recycling could be better
    While 99 percent of lead-acid batteries are recycled in the United States, estimated recycling rates for lithium-ion batteries are about 5 percent.

    If done properly, used car batteries could continue to be used for a decade or more as backup storage for solar power, researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology found in a study last year.


    This interactive online tool tries to incorporate all relevant factors
     
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  5. portacruise
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    portacruise Senior Member

    Probably because of fracking, we are in a relatively glut position at the present time as far as fossil fuels, but FF will run out some day. Previous energy crisis have given us but a small glimpse of the instability that can happen when shortages develop, but the lessons didn't sink in enough for a strong push for answers. It appears we are going forward and even accelerating our dependence on combustion of fossil fuels, and there is increasing expressed resistance to exploring other possibilities while we have the luxury of cheap fossil fuel to help that effort. JMHO, there is a necessity to be proactive instead of too late reactive to alternatives and it has to start way before that fossil fuel depletion happens. Time is needed for finding and discarding alternative technologies that don't help, even if it temporarily increases fossil fuel consumption in the process. EVs and batteries will go belly up soon enough on their own, if they are more harmful or expensive compared to FF combustion, even though it becomes a punishing lesson. Then we can go on to the next alternative thing which might be biomass, better batteries, fuel cells, Fusion or whatever yet undiscovered technology.
     
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  6. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    The energy crises are not dependent on the source. The increase of oil prices were caused by restricting the supply to artificially increase the price. The same can happen if the owners of wind generators create a cartel and restrict the amount of power available. DeBeers has done really well by limiting the amount of diamonds available in the market.
     
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  7. portacruise
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    portacruise Senior Member

    FF depletion is the ultimate forever restriction of source which never resolves itself and nothing can be done to force FF companies to comply. Wind energy cartel will eventually come to terms because of the many other sources are available and negotiation or Force is possible when there is still a source. DeBeers would go out of business if there was a genuine depletion of diamonds, and could not be forced or enticed to produce at any price.

    EVs stop the 80% wasteful and damaging dumping of IC FF combustion heat energy which is not used to help propel an IC vehicle forward. Electric power plants use most of that 80% wasted FF heat to produce electricity.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2021
  8. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    An electric power plant would run at a loss. There are coal, oil, natural gas, wind, hydro, etc. power plants that normally produce electricity. Pick your poison.
     
  9. portacruise
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    portacruise Senior Member

    A boat powered by a natural gas fuel methane engine dumps/ wastes as much as 80% of the heat from combustion with mostly the expanding / exploding gases part being used for propulsion driving the Pistons. A power plant burning natural gas methane fuel uses much of the heat from combustion to make Steam from heated water, which expands and blows through turbine blades which then turn a generator giving ac electricity. A fuel cell would use the 25% hydrogen part of methane to produce dc electricity directly without explosive combustion in a fuel cell device that contains catalysts, chemicals, and membranes, producing a little Heat and cleaner by-products.

    Once there are substantial numbers of EVs present they will be parked 95% of the time like most vehicles, and when tethered at home or work they can be configured to charge their batteries at excess supply times or when the price is the lowest per KWH, maybe minute to minute. Then they can instantly feed back electric power as needed at peak use times with almost zero lag time, when the price per KWH is highest, making a profit or getting credit for the owners selling back whatever portion they want. Point being they can theoretically help reduce the need for costly grid expansion, by theoretically sopping up excess and providing instantaneous storage before the breakers or blackouts start.

    At least that's the way I understand it, I could be missing something though?
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2021
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  10. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Old Woodbutcher

    Why do we NEED to convert to ec- because some dictator orders it?
    Masterminds think they must control us.
     
  11. rangebowdrie
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    rangebowdrie Junior Member

    It always sounds so precise and neat when the "erudite" crowd pigeon-holes everybody into their frame of mind of what the public should do,, and by inference, "We can make better decisions than you can".
    Those who believe that everything would be roses if only everyone would do what they envision as "proper behavior".
    It seems that much of the peak demand on the grid overlaps the peak demand for transportation.
    Maybe I'm cynical, but I imagine most people with an EV will want their vehicle battery at full charge as much as possible.
    But hey, if you listen to some well known politicians, or the little pigtail girl, (who all speak as if they have some special knowledge,) the world only has a very more years anyway.
    And, if that's the case then roll-the-coal and drill-baby-drill.
     
  12. kerosene
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    kerosene Senior Member

    if it is made convenient and the market pricing encourages it, nobody will have to be forced to do anything.

    I am contemplating setting two thermostats to my central heating boiler so that it would heat up hotter during the night (cheap). extra smarts for this kind of setups will get more and more commonplace. you don't need complex systems to feed market data and adjust heater based on that.

    same exact mentality with the car batteries. an app that reads the electricity price and times charging based of that. and later potentially feeding back.

    there needs to be financial incentive but it really is about market solution.
     
  13. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Old Woodbutcher

    Free market solutions are the best but we are heading away from free market system.
     
  14. ImaginaryNumber
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    ImaginaryNumber Imaginary Member

    The Advantages & Disadvantages of Free Market Economies
    • Advantage: Absence of Red Tape...
    • Advantage: Freedom to Innovate...
    • Advantage: Customers Drive Choices...
    • Disadvantage: Limited Product Ranges...
    • Disadvantage: Dangers of Profit Motive...
    • Disadvantage: Market Failures...
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Advantages Of A Free Market Economy
    1. Consumer Sovereignty...
    2. Absence of Bureaucracy...
    3. Motivational Influence of Free Enterprise...
    4. Optimal Allocation of Resources...

    Disadvantages Of A Free Market Economy
    1. Poor Quality...
    2. Merit Goods...
    3. Excessive Power of Firms...
    4. Unemployment and Inequality...
     

  15. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    No.

    67% is more accurate with a downward push on that number of about a half a percent per year with an expectation of 50~50 fossil fuels versus others by 2050(call that fun with 50). I suppose one could argue nukes are fossil fuels; I am not here.

    The best thing about diversity of fuels you miss John. If the Saud family only gets a small piece of the global share of world energy; we are at their mercy a bit less. If we only use oil; they jam us with price controls and if the prices are high enough; our oil production in North America becomes (more) valuable. If we have diversity in the power economy; no one entity can punish us.

    Competition is good; unless it become pure competition and then it becomes impossible. Farming is close to pure competition. Buyers have power over sellers.

    Energy diversity is good.
     
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