how about a combo PWC & motorcycle?

Keep in mind that if you use a PWC as the base you may not be able to get it licensed for street use. The regulations to get a new vehicle licensed for street use are enormous.

If you want to use it on the street, the easiest way would be to start with a street-legal vehicle and make sure the final vehicle still contains the original VIN.

 

regs for even State of CA don't look that bad, and they give you

a real Wild Card in the "statement of facts from repair shop".

PS-I hear it is real easy to get a BAR lic. to open a shop.

Guys get Kit Cars registered and those don't have smog or airbags.

Guys get custom chopper registered and those don't have smog and are totally unsafe compared to normal bikes.

http://dmv.ca.gov/vr/spcnsreg.htm

 

I don't think a PWC deep vee hull would be best for TirePlanning.

Figure a ton of water is going to be flying up at the hull from a driven front tire. I'd like to both capture some of that energy and convert it to Lift, and minimize the spray to both rider and bystanders.

It wouldn't be too popular in a crowded marina blasting a fire-hose worth of spray from both sides, which it might tend to do even at modest speeds if a water-blast is hitting a deep-vee.

So the bottom of the hull just aft of the front tire would want to be some odd shape, maybe with channels, vanes or runners.

Might also be good to have a trailing rear fender for same reason.

Might be good to have a front fender extending as far over the front tire as practical to cut down on forward spray blowing back at the rider.

 

no, no one offered me some bucks to keep this silent, was in bed with a flew, so hello again boat design thinktank, no new bullpen ideas on the pwc motorcycle combo these weeks? we have to use our creativety but brainpower as well becouse i entered this thread in the competition! i had some ideas but a fever too so let me check, riding on water isnt a bad idea rite?

meanwhile i did read up on bi and motorcycle's and amazed myself on their dynamics but found no reason not to persue the idea. looked at the newest big pws that are about 140' by 50x50' weigh bout 850 pound. had some scaled bike overlays done a pwc. on the dry we need about 40 degree deadrise to corner, could be 20 if you like but than the bottom goes up and wheels stick out and dont know how sponsoons be best placed, any ideas? fully loaded with 2 passengers bout gives half a cubed meter displacement at the waterline and then some, did some sketches with buoyant frontwheel fender bows so mainhull bow can me more aft and opens room for your feet to hit the ground. stability with 3 riders on a 2 seat model has allways been a problem i read but do like the new 3 theater budyseat models. looked again at that yamaha hydrolics, but dont know much bout high presure hydrolics, heard someone whisper rotary engine but maybe 2 green electro motors in the wheels does better

consequently i dont know what to draw as *.jpg that i promised to Janne Pekkala competition secretary of Aalto university on Visions of Future Boating were i posted the animation and link to this thread for background information, they will send a brief query via email were will be asked to give opinions on the inspirational material -think ive allready done that in the comp thread- as well as questions how experienced you (or your group) are in boating. i havent checked the jurers on that but hope they are the industry finest that can check inovative boating ideas and perhaps i better leave this idea with that for the moment? riding on water may be a good idea -i belive so!- and can be done but i still wonder how it can be civilised to new usable watercrafts. still a bit of a fever i think, but hey, the sun is out again and so am i, not in a T shirt this year anymore tho

 

Hmmm?

Since there are varied ideas posted and without conclusions by others, I'm getting lost so could we restate the goal?

1. Is this to be street legal or not?

2. Is it a boat with wheels or a wheeled vehicle that floats?

3. What is the purpose? Just go from a parking lot off a trailer and roll into the lake or are you riding this thing 8 miles to the beach and getting into the surf?

IMO (based on 45 years of riding and being a nationally ranked cyclist) if you are going to have solid hulls or sponsons as outriggers or a solid hull like a jet ski, you will need three wheels or more.....period. You can not get the weight and bulk of any flotation to the sides of a bicycle/motorcycle and frames that would be reasonably balanced by a rider at speed and safe.

 

Streel Legal? yes. 9miles to beach? Yes. Boat w/wheels, not vehicle that floats.

PURPOSE WOULD BE TO:

1)disembark from yacht anchored one mile out(or one mile from harbor in some nice private cove, or just 50yards out and not paying high berthing fees) and cruise up onto launch ramp(without waiting in line) on onto beach and then travel to town for shopping and be able to do 50miles of sight-seeing on roads, then back to launch ramp and back to yacht.

2)travel from home to water 20+ miles away and back(including water only accessible by cycle or horse trails, which might include waters where motors aren't allowed, but you could still float and paddle).

3)do delivery/taxi service in harbors and marinas, and do so to boat-side(I've heard to get pizza etc you normally need to get off boat and go meet him at dock-gate, or even at parking gate). Basically, the fastest and easiest way to get from boat to town and back, or town to boat and back.





Not only have I ridden some very overloaded cycles, the Chinese and Vietnamese are masters at using a common bicycle to haul huge loads.

Basically, they tie 6 bags (3front, 3 back....2 down low on each side, one over the fender) and off they go. Walk the loaded bike up hills, have two walkers for steep hills and rely to bring riders back down hills on bike.

Plus, just look at the 1000lb touring bikes, often ridden by riders with shocking little motorcycle exp.

And I'm definitely thinking of at least 3 distinct versions of the PWC/combo:

1)FeatherWeight SOT Kayak w/bike wheels w/under 125cc engine.

2)Standard PWC hull based, with motorcycle derived wheels and suspension retractable. It would be a heavy low performance PWC or scooter on water and land, respectively, but still 66% on either...which is still pretty kick-***.

3)Yipsters TirePlaning or at least "Tire Water Propulsion" concept....maybe in both low-powered non-planing and higher powered planing versions, but with near TrailBreaker offroading, especially shore-landing.



Remember, we aren't talking about "Nationally Ranked" anything, handling wise. More of a "Granny", but still able to get around town or harbor.


YIPSTER, click my handle for where I may have found the near perfect hull starting point for the FeatherWeight SOT kayak based version.

I'm bogged down with finishing moving(to my new pad with 2car garage to MYSELF) AND two exams etc this Tues.


PS-yeah, I've looked at motorcycle lean angles and PWC hull, but those lean angles (even for touring bikes) allow for white-knuckle near racing turning speeds. Try riding a bike and leaning into a turn at even half the angle shown on the covers of any motorcycle magazine(even touring models). Hint: You will need a friend with a camera to prove to you just how slow you were actually going when you felt you were at 45' leaning angle.

Also consider that Height over ground doesn't make balance harder on motorcycle, may even help as it increases "tip over time", but I don't think more than 4" of keel to road clearance would be needed for standard PWC hull for the sort of road riding the Combo would be doing, but maybe more clearance would be desired for hopping curbs(and probably a nice strip of replaceable steel on the keel)

 

thanks for the reply's guy's

wavewacker, look back a page or two and read the article (from the mid ninetys!) i posted on yamahas pwc against snowski test
ok a treewheeler you might say but the u-tube 2 wheel waterrides show it can be done on 2 wheels too with use of standard offroad tires
that dont even have front wheel drive, ok they sink and cant start from floating but it can be done better, think of grass track and spiked ice speedway bikes
also think of all the advantages riding on water gives dont you think its worth more r&d before saying it cant be done period?

squidly-diddly, my thinking too, have some more models for various use but mine would definitly have to have brakes and a licence plate for road use
such licencing tests can be done here too. see what drawings i can come up later before a good idea slips back again into oblivion

 

Yipster, I'm with you, I didn't say it couldn't be done, all for trying to figure out such a contraption, but;

Squidly, don't mean to sound.....whatever, but seeing people ride something overloaded and doing it re two different things. I have ridden with large bulky loads at times, didn't say it can't be done, said it was not SAFE! If you think so, then it's obvious you are not a biker or a rider. Highways or streets means traffic, people cutting you off, passing short, it's not always the rider, it's the other idiots on the road that think you are not going as fast as you are or that you can simply swerve to another lane. Jumping curbs, LOL, I can do that with a 1600 Vulcan. My Transalp dual sport (V Twin 650) has a higher CG for ground clearance over rough terrain and I run street/trial tires, I don't know what you were trying to explain about leaning, but I can ride down to the rims on the dual sport and take the Vulvan down until sparks fly and you need speed. As cruisers go, the Vulcan 1600 (only the 2000 is bigger) is on the large side of production bikes, then you get into V6 or V8s, the Vulcan dry is about 725 pounds, there are heavier bikes but not really bigger but I don't know of a production bike that tips in any where near a 1,000 pounds.

If it has to be a two wheeler, I'd suggest you devise a frame that folds pontoons higher and inward toward the rider for the road. It's easier to balance a wide heavy, wind catching load up higher on a bike than it is having it lower as that tends to throw the balance of the rider off, ideally it would be about seat level. If the sponsons downntoons were about two feet wide, one foot deep and eight feet long, that would not be too much of a problem if they were say around 60/70 pounds, the closer they come in to the rider when driving the better. If your baulk is outward and low, it will become a quicker problem to correct for wind or an emergency manuver, higher means more room to correct a situation. Actually, they could offer some protection to a rider. Also you need to think about mounting and dismounting on land as well as putting your feet down. This being from an experienced riders percpective.

The suggestion about a front fender that rotated down from above the wheel to below can deflect spray, help cover the brakes from being submerged and act as a front rudder if it is going at low speeds.

Yipster, there is (was) a Honda Trail bike that was street legal that used really fat tires, more like a big minibike. I believe the tires were large enough to float it but it needed outriggers to stablize it. That was done in the late 70s/80s. I think the name was a Honcho, not sure.

Might try to design a lever actuated sprocket that would engage the chain to drive a prop and your rear tire would be spinning as well.

But really, if I wanted to meet those requirements, I'd start with something like a Gator or homebuilt dune buggy type.

Last question, what boat is going to be hauling this thing around and how do you get it on and off the boat at anchor?

 

I don't think a PWC w/motorcycle derived road gear as

I roughed out would be a problem to handle. Sure, it would be like a 1975 Cadillac compared to normal motorcycle, but still no problem for anyone with a couple weeks of motorcycling, and it should be OK to moderate freeway speeds(85mph) handling like a 1975 Cad the whole time.


What I meant about leaning: I've owned about 20 motorcycles from mopeds to Harley Sporters, and most things in between(all rat bikes, nothing over $1500) and only done commuting and cruising, and lots of transporting stuff. I don't think I've even taken a turn at more than 1/2 speed,(I"VE HAD PEOPLE TRY TO GOAD/TEACH ME INTO RIDING FASTER, BUT I JUST DON'T THINK I HAVE THAT DNA) but I always seem to be going a lot faster than the cars, so I don't think a 2 wheeler alot slower than a normal bike is going to be big traffic problem. I've never had an accident, even when riding drunk, high or coming off graveyard shift. Figure you will drive it like one of those touring bikes with a trailer, and those little safety flags on poles(w/light on top for legal night use on the water!) since the Combo might be lower than normal bikes.

The big hazard would be people gawking at you while THEY crash into someone else.

I'm staying away from articulated pontoons or floats, as that adds weight and reduces strength. I think the suspension is far more suited to being the moving parts, along the same Swingarm and telescoping paths, just farther.

In my first or second post I mentioned having a single fat V-rail mounted on oneside(typical ap for example) of a typical cat's staircase down to the water.

You would use existing boat rigging and pulleys to winch the Combo up on the rail and carry it at approx 30' or whatever the stairs worked out to be.

I mentioned the rail could be bolted, or sitting on its own paddled "Vee" supports that conform to the stairs, and tied off from there(for owners who don't fancy drilling 1/2 dozen holes in their new boats). I think the Rail and Padded Vee Supports could even be easily transported ON the Combo and installed in under 10minutes on any yacht with stern staircase. The Padded Vees would themselves by able to slide up or down the Rail until tightened, similar to Thule Auto Racks.

I also mentioned a flatted Nose, with provision to 'bump to connect' (like RR cars, with "pull cable to disconnect from rider's seat"?) on the stern of a yacht and thus be instantly connected by two points along an axis parallel with the yacht's transom....which would also require some minor unit to be fixed or tied on the yacht. "Bump to Connect" would help in getting people and goods on and off the Combo, and in trailing it instead of hauling it aboard(like if Combo was just too big for the yacht) AND using the Combo as backup, maneuvering, or aux propulsion.

 

hi guy's made half a drawing -without wheels or front bow fender yet- but its a start and the contest closes oct 31 if i'm rite
looked it up and a mean bike you got wavewacker, collected some other bikes and pwc's, fat reartires too
how to board this is a good question couse we first have to sell the boat to see if we can get this motopwc okay (if ever)
davids work like for any dingy or pwc but indeed this one opens the possibility to somehow ride it aboard
drawn in freeship i can post the file if you or anyone likes but has to many leakpoints still to nudge to get any stability or whatever calcs yet
but guess this will ride and fload as shown and wont need fold out ama's yet it could help giving it more of a starship enterprise look
has to look good ofcourse but has a bit of a ducky look still eh? i'll have a bite and start that front bow fender, comments welcome
3 fold hull is ok as it will ride on wheels, think the waterline will be a bit higher and dont see how to keep the feets dry

 

Looks cool! Very nice, put some wheels on it and see what they look like.

Reminds me of the Honda Pacific Coast as if that's the new model of the PC.

You'll want another fender over the front wheel, right over the tire to keep spray and small stuff from being thrown up. The duck bill looks good there.

I wonder if the duck bill could tilt, up like you have it for the water and tip down a bit more when on land....looks like you would get alot of lift from that front end at speed or in a good gust and lift or sway at the front of a bike is not a good thing. Or, maybe it could come down a bit more...don't know until you get a wheel out there...

Great look! Good luck!

 

looks good, but I'm still wondering about spray defected from Vee hull.

Some Vee might be nice for leaning on land, or even taking waves, but I'd consider a bunch of upside down "half pipes" running long ways from front to back to catch and defect spray from the tires, and even provide extra 'grip' on the water when submerged at low speed.

How fat of tires/wheels are you going to use? Something "off the shelf" from ATV or Quad?

Any preferred existing drive-train(engine/transmission picked out? Or even a general engine displacement range?

How about front wheel drive method? I think any purely mechanical (like TrailBreaker) has a major torque steer effect (but Trailbreaker is only 170CC).

Is it going to have a wheel-well in back?

Will it be highly stable at rest in mildly choppy water? With or without a rider?

 

there are day's your inspired and day's your not. Most day's are mediocre tho
have to show to be in the contest so here the mediocre second half of the drawing
seems impossible to forge this work as it takes time and dedication, no quik good results
at one point i even lost the drawing completely with merging files together, got to take care!

made the pwcmoto a bit shorter, stil big but like the honda pacific coast motorbike big boot. (pizzas)
i drove bikes upto 250 and only once borrowed a 500, than with side car mounted had a hard time making it around the block.
maybe the design is to wide, maybe your fold out floads is a good idea.

squidly's idea of a pwc/motorbike combo is attractive and takes a bike that dont sink when stationairy.
could be with retracted wheels in a pwc hull and jets as squidly illustrated
my sketches are based on 2 wheel drive to get on -and have a good ride- on water, at least thats the idea
Yamaha has a hydrolic frontwheel drive that may be used but there are a few more enginering issues so havent made speclist

different lines and more thoughts come to mind but thats it, this is it, this is the general idea, not the picture as that is subject to change
maybe riding a 2 wheeler on water will never work well, i dont know, i can however imagine riding on water do very well
but what if this bike/pwc does ride on land and water, and better: what if it gives a trilling ride? guess its a longshot for the industry's r&d

the rokon 2 wheel chain driven bike might be short on power and footprint, but if your frendly neighbour has one, mount floads and give it a try.
no garanties what it will do tho

Wonder what the contest experts think of it. prices too i see, when inspired i might still try that great look, for now, thats it, pc off!

 

looks pretty good, much bigger than I thought from first pics.

However, you might want to "change everything" before submitting to the contest.

From "Contest Rules"

"Project entries cannot currently be in production, published or exhibited. They must be kept confidential until the results of the competition are published."

I guess they want only "top secret" submissions, unseen by human eyes.


I'd suggest increasing size of rider to decrease size of the craft, and a current production front and rear tire. That should make the front tire a little smaller diameter and the rear a little narrower.

Then don't show that here before submitting.

 

keen guy you are squidly didly thx, ok, didnt read that, i understood some hush alrite but recall reading entree's could be made by groups as well

so.. i can just as well argue this design is not currently in production, published or exhibited, just discussed in this small group

chances are only 3 winning designs be shown but i am more than curious what else is thought up, f.e. katch mentioned plans of entering a design

i hope all designs will be publiced with jurers reasoning, think that would not only satisfy me but other ceative secret designs as well

good you mentiont the rules squid, nevertheless i feel great again today, have the pc on again and submit my final secrets to keep a small chance on free pizza's