how about a combo PWC & motorcycle?

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Squidly-Diddly, Sep 11, 2011.

  1. yipster
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    yipster designer

    I was thinking of a flat workboat to drive a camperbus on, not a cat
    have a rollerbench driving a slow paddlewheel and yes have the frotwheels on the rudder
    have a link to see how they did that patented bike on cat?

    And you said it well: "PWC Bike" becouse i'm surprised no one yet mentioned "have you ever driven a motorbike at 100kph true water?"
    this idea is indeed bascicly a PWC on wheels and not meant to go flat with zipper scars
    so squidly, if you like "nuts" [me] to file this to a contest better than "nutter as nuts" thats ok, idea is yours tho
     
  2. Wavewacker
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    Wavewacker Senior Member

    There is a large pontoon boat that has a diesel pusher RV drive on.It is on rollers for the drive wheels and the front wheels are on disks that operate the rudder, already done. Saw pics about three years ago, don't know where, sorry.

    Edited: I missed that question, sorry, I do not have a link to the patent. The patent was more to the drive wheel against the tire, like the old drop down generators on a bicycle tire, a roller/wheel is on the tire.

    AND, as I recal it was an application for patent, not sure if it was awarded. But it's been done.

    I would imagine the steering disc simple has an arm underneath, turn right the cable runs back to the rudder for a right turn.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2011
  3. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Its still the most versatile trouble free transport tool around.
     

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  4. yipster
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    yipster designer

    michael pierzga thx for showing and that is so thrue but look.. its like sailing with the fenders out.. and both are regulars.. maybe your boat and bike but..
     
  5. yipster
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    yipster designer

    wavewacker, i'm not gonna ridwe a RV on a dekschuit like this had a frend who asked me for years to draw something like that for his caravan and refused for same reason as above
    (it does not look rite) but now have a RV myself (sold my old sundancer) and miss the waterfront but nah, better drive south fast

    the idea of sailing a RV is not new tho
    http://www.terrawind.com/terrawind.htm
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsrDKdpcj9Q
    http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2010/05/2-in-1-pleasure-boat-and-rv-vehicle.html
     
  6. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    Yip, interesting concept you have there, let me see if I'm understanding it.

    It would be a two wheel drive motorcycle with fat tires(like the biggest rear tires on Quad), and probably no suspension(the fat low pressure tires would suffice, like a Rokon Trailbreaker).

    I would have a PWC type hull, but just for seaworthiness at rest or low speeds.

    At high speed it would 'plane' on the spinning tires.

    So crazy it just might work.

    The concept has several good things going for it.

    1)eliminating the water-jet(s) and front and rear suspension(to say nothing of RETRACTABLE front and rear suspension, and DUAL water-jets) really helps the KISS and would drastically reduce overall weight. The Rokon Trailbreaker weights only 200lbs.

    2)Use of fat low pressure 2wd tires would give it near Trailbreaker off road ability, especially on soft sand or muddy banks. That would open up a whole world of use I hadn't imagined possible. Not just a ship-to-ramp-to-street but a real wilderness exploring "handles anything" craft.


    How would it handle in 2wd water planning mode? Who knows, but I don't see any reason it wouldn't be manageable with little practice. What happens when the front wheel is turned in planning mode might be like a land-based cycle, or might not, as it will be producing FORCE of its own.

    I can't imagine Tire-Planning working on anything but calm water, but if it can chug along at 8knots in non-planning mode that would be fine.

    On land it would be mushy, but still fine for its intended use. No reason it couldn't hit low highway speeds of 65mph.

    I'm thinking about 400cc, or whatever it would take to get it up on plane from stopped in the water. A target weight of 330lbs(Trailbreaker weights 200lbs with 170cc motor, and I'm allowing 100lbs for SOT kayak type PWC shaped hull.


    I KNOW I could make a PWC with retractable wheels that would be near equal to a PWC or scooter on water or land, respectively.....

    just heavy, complex, expensive and low performance.

    Gonna be "tough nut" to crack to get to the first test ride in the water of a 2wd Tire Planner.

    Have any Tire Planner 4wd craft ever got up on a plane from stopped in the water, or do they all need a flying start from land?


    I do have serious safely concerns about what might happen to the rider if it 'wipes out' when up on a plane, I and do think it would be far more prone to full scale "wipe out" than any PWC or even stand-up JetSki.

    I'm also thinking it would be a tricky transition from displacement to planing modes, and maybe a problem coming down to displacement from planing on a two wheeler. Suddenly you are going to have a big fat tire stuck in the water while still going fairly fast.

    But the KISS and OffRoad Soft Surface features of the simple non-sprung Rokon style rig might be the way to go, even if it can't plane on the tires and only goes 8knots in water. If it doesn't NEED to have enough power to plane on the tires, it could be even lighter and simpler. Maybe use a Rokon as starting point. Butcher up the frame to fit into a PWC shaped hull of SOT kayak material, replace the chains with toothed belts. Fatter Quad tires. Target weight of 260lbs.
     
  7. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    I suppose you could fit big tires onto a seagoing Sardine bike then get amphibious
     

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  8. yipster
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    yipster designer

    Michael you are a hot bycicle freak :D

    Squid you got the general idea
    dont know about specs but agree aRokon could be a testbed
    when driven into the water fast enouch to ride on it

    small keys on mobile, swype ya but what app writes what you say?
     
  9. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    great pics Micheal, and hauntingly close to "it".

    The fat tires isn't far off, and the SilverFish isn't either, and shows how it would be possible to use legs to balance when stopped rather than training wheels or skids, if you're careful not to get legs caught. Might be workable on a lightweight version.
     
  10. Village_Idiot
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    Village_Idiot Senior Member

    Again, think "inflatable" airplane-style pontoons. They can be slightly height-adjustable with a simple lightweight lever. Pontoons down until tires/bike gain speed/momentum, then slowly raise pontoons for full planing performance. This contraption will be too much of a compromise to have anything be fully automatic.

    Maybe you should have the Orange County bike shop guys build something for you? Or who were those other guys, on Discovery Channel IIRC, that built small recreational tracked vehicles and other curiosities, just for fun...? Seems like they were only on for a few episodes.
     
  11. yipster
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    yipster designer


    typed "riding on water" in google and see, its been done all over the planet
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?[YOUTUBE]v=hMzB3A82LMY[/YOUTUBE]
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJRe1zdMhA8
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/7270817/the_sitter_lullaby_tv_spot/?source=playlist
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z056UILz77s&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TRCroy3DKs&feature=fvwrel etc
    only wonder how they would transit between riding, planing, cornering
    jumping etc. in other words if it could make a more serious combo PWC product
    but ride on water with 2 wheels they do, small tyres and even wonder if they have both wheels driven
     
  12. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    I'm sure those motoX bikes are all rear only drive.

    They are relying solely on how 'hard' the surface of the water is at any good speed. Reminds me of the time I jumped off a speed boat at 20mph(maybe less). I thought I must have hit some hidden concrete platform at first, and remember a sensation of skidding and tumbling on top of the very hard water surface.

    Inflatables are a possibility.

    But the more I think about it, I think a lightweight craft as Yipster laid out with a hi-powered motoX type engine would have no problem getting up on TirePlane. It will help that the tires will be semi-sunk into the PWC hull, so they will only be throwing water in the right direction(stern). Could probably do it with RearWheelDrive only.

    So now all that needs to be done is a stitch&glue hull(for easy proto-type) or find a donor PWC hull to butcher and add wheelwells, and fitting donor motoX bike's running gear with a big fat rear with not 'sand paddles' but not 'knobbies'....just some of those 'bars' cris-cross pattern. http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/13593_lg.jpg

    http://i.ebayimg.com/23/!BcFpJoQ!Wk~$(KGrHqIH-EQEquGzMJDTBKy8KmVoTQ~~_35.JPG

    Try that first but be ready to rig Rokon style front wheel drive. I noticed the Rokon site didn't have a parts list and prices, just accessories. I guess I'd need to call them.

    I'm still thinking about a PWC based combo with retractable wheels, and street or dual sport tires, so it would be pretty much a PWC in water, and a large scootor or touring bike on land.


    Here is the Howe and Howe Tech site. They are working on a movie(to be named later). They seem to do Tracks only, I'm wondering if they do linked tracks, or "half-track" style where the links are 'loose' but have a steel cable running through them.http://www.howeandhowetechnologies.com/home.php

    Another way to solve the WaterJet/RearTire intersection problem would be to use a single small ski-do style track running in between where the front and rear wheels retract at the keel. That might even be used to get past soft sand or mud flats with the wheels mostly retracted. Of course then some rudder would be needed.

    Besides steering, what advantages does a waterpump have over Track-in-Water drive? Much more efficient in MPG terms? Do the tracks wear out fast doing that? Cost?

    Another possibility would be to route the water pipe around the rear wheel, instead of having dual waterjets. Have the pump forward of the rearwheel well, and only the vector nozzle would be behind the rearwheel well. I guess that would be a question for real engineers: which loses more power, having two smaller jets, or running the water blast through a couple of bends in a the pipe?
     
  13. Village_Idiot
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    Village_Idiot Senior Member

    The speed and efficiency of the snowmobile tracks on water is intrigueing - I would investigate that concept further. Snowmobile tracks down the center of the PWC, with thin wheels/tires along the "gunwales" in their traditional locations. Perhaps four good bicycle wheels/tires (would be good up to freeway speeds, though short-lived), easily retractable if need be. Front wheels can be sheathed to provide rudders.

    Be aware that the CVT drive of the snowmobile may not be as durable in a marine environment - may need to look at a shaft-drive arrangement of some sort.

    Although not as simplistic, would be advantageous to separate the wheel drive from the track drive, either mechanically or perhaps electric clutches.

    A hybrid gas/electric setup would be cool - a small high-rpm, high-efficiency engine driving a generator to drive electric motors for low-speed torque, then switching over to the gas motor for propulsion at higher speeds. No need for a bunch of heavy batteries, although a flywheel would be very good to have. It is also possible to make it totally electric drive with all electricity coming from the gas motor/generator/flywheel. With electric motor drive, there is less worry of transmission durability (because there is none!). Only concern is durability of resistors to control speed.

    Don't forget the brakes, lights, etc. to make the thing legal!
     
  14. yipster
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    yipster designer

    electric or not its an atractive idea in need of some more expertise and exposion i think
    or is it time to stop with this fruitless exercise and stay in bed with a darned cold
    think about cooling, watertight seals and what more, no easy task, not even for a giant
    than again how about some stability calcs for size and perhaps doing a flashy render
     

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  15. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    I was thinking about hi-torque electric for front wheel, just

    to help get out of the water on a ramp, or past the soft sand or mud of a bank.

    Unless you hit the ramp with wheels down and some speed(and as soon as the wheels come down it will slow way down) I foresee trouble maintaining balance or even getting enough traction from the rear tire when the whole rear of the craft is still half supported by water.

    Maybe adapt an engine starter motor. They are made for high output for a limited time and run off a PWC or motorcycle battery.
     
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