House battery bank choices

Discussion in 'OnBoard Electronics & Controls' started by GoSlow, Aug 6, 2008.

  1. GoSlow
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    GoSlow Junior Member

    I am considering what type batteries to use for a house battery bank on a trawler. My consideration is between deep cycle 8D's versus 2 volt traction batteries. Location and access isn't a consideration, there is ample room. I am familiar with the 8D batteries but not the 2 volt. Does anyone have any first hand knowledge on both types of batteries they would be willing to share?
     
  2. FAST FRED
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    Any conventional REAL deep cycle battery set will work. As a caution those 8D are really heavy to replace and hump up on deck.

    The 2V units will be far easier , BUT the many terminals will need a bit of cleaning on occasion.

    The style battery is far less important than your ability to not KILL it.

    A voltmeter is basically useless, check out an E-Meter , or a Trace inverter with monitoring abiliy . Bogartengineering.com is another source.

    These $200 or so units learn your battset , observe every amp in or out , from every source and give a SOC, (state of charge) reading instantly ,that you can use NOT to KILL the set.

    FF
     
  3. CDK
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    CDK retired engineer

    The only real deep cycle batteries on this planet are those that contain NO liquid acid at all because it is coagulated in a gel, and the cylindrical ones where a porous isolator is rolled up between 2 lead foils, made by Exide and several others. Very expensive and with a bad weight/capacity ratio.

    Cheaper and just as reliable is to use any serious brand of ordinary LA batteries, line up so many of them that under normal circumstances you will never need to discharge them below 1/3 capacity. Then follow Fast Freds advice and buy some equipment to monitor their condition.
    If you plan to use solar panels, include a regulator with an 80% warning signal and automatic shutdown at 70%.
    I have an LA battery built into a garden wall, that powers a row of garden lights and a 9 ft wide electric gate. Replaced it last month because just before sunrise someone left the premises and the gate didn't close completely. The battery label said it was purchased in 1997....
     
  4. FAST FRED
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    A better question is what will the house batt set be attempting to power and for how long?


    This is a lifestyle question , some trawler folks come from a commercial boat and think 24/7/365 genset or two is the norm.

    Some are upgrading rag baggers that will only run a noisemaker for rare air conditioning needs , and little else.

    What is your dream operation? Refrigeration is the Key Question.

    FF
     
  5. buckknekkid
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    buckknekkid Senior Member




    E-meter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    An E-meter is an electronic device manufactured at the Church of Scientology 's Golden Era Productions facility, and is used exclusively by the Church. The device is a variation on an ohmmeter, using a Wheatstone bridge to measure electrical resistance. It is used as an aid by Dianetics and Scientology counselors and counselors-in-training in some forms of auditing, the application of the techniques of Dianetics and Scientology to another or to oneself for the express purpose of addressing spiritual issues.
    :p :p :p :p :p :p :D
     
  6. FAST FRED
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    Again demonstrates how useless Wikipedia is,

    E-Meter
    From SeattleEVA
    Jump to: navigation, search

    An E-meter measures the state of charge of batteries.

    In a nutshell, it measures the current flow into and out of the battery pack. The thing is that the effective capacity of a lead-acid battery is dependent on the rate at which it's discharged. A simplified example:

    A 100 Ah (amp-hour) battery can provide 1 amp for 100 hours, or 2 amps for 50 hours, or 5 amps for 20 hours. That's the theory. In actuality, the more current you draw, the lower the actual capacity you get out. So, you may get 1 amp for 100 hours, but 5 amps for only 19 hours, and instead of 50 amps for 2 hours, you'd only get 50 amps for 1 hour. This is known as the Peukert's Law.

    Anyhow, an e-meter not only measures the total amps that go into (charging) and out of (discharging) a battery, but takes into account the rate that it's used, and uses Peukert's empirical formula to calculate the effective charge, giving a more accurate indication of the battery's true state of charge (SOC).

    Short version: Battery Fuel Gauge.

    A commonly used E-Meter for electric vehicles it the Xantrex Link-10. http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/237/p/1/pt/5/product.aspThe Link 10 is a state-of-the-art battery bank monitor that uses sophisticated microprocesor technology to report all significant battery information.

    Xantrex also make the Link-20 and the XBM e-meters.

    * Build it yourself battery monitor for multi-battery packs http://home.earthlink.net/~evtkw/ Includes plans schematics and details - by Tim Wong
    * Gordon Stallings battery monitor with schematics http://genki.home.ionet.net/BattMon/BattMonArticle.html
    * PakTrakr http://www.paktrakr.com/index.html monitors individual batteries in packs of multiple batteries
    * Smart Gauge (UK) http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/ Great technical info on how battery monitors work.
    * http://www.rc-electronics-usa.com/ammeters/rv-battery-monitor.html
    * http://www.micromediaplus.com/microlog_dmm-3_dmm-4.html
    * http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/cellmon/cellmon1.pdf schematic for battery low voltage threshold indicator

    With a bit of work , one can be built , but the combo of a good (Trace) inverter with a Link 10 or 20 will satisfy most boaters.

    FF
     
  7. Landlubber
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    try http://www.bepmarine.com/

    they are good people with good products, have now been taken over by the yanks though i believe....such is life.
     
  8. GoSlow
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    GoSlow Junior Member

    This is for a new 65' build project and 12 8D's are the standard. As to expectations, I would like to have 24-30 hours quiet ship support from the batteries while on anchor. I realize refigeration is critcal to this and I am researching that now as well. We will likely change the standard Sub Zero to some other brand of full size refrigerator/freezer. I am not a fan of SZ and they seem to be somewhat more power hungry than others. There will be two refrigerator drawers and a cold plate for additional freezer capacity. Interiro lighting will likely be LED and I certainly don't expect to operate air conditioning, clothes dryer, or watermaker from the batteries. I would take care of that during the daily re-charge from the generator. Currently, hot water is provided by the hot water heater but I am looking at different sources for that as well. Mostly there will be two people aboard.

    BTW, the information on the equipment to monitor the batteries is very helpful. Thank you for the posts.
     
  9. Landlubber
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    Don't forget to get your solar panels too, the best money that you will ever spend in your life.
     
  10. FAST FRED
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    For a new build , where the ability to build a proper overboard drain setup is simple , have you considered Propane for the reefers?

    They take ZERO electrical power giving a boat with a solar panel or two unlimited silent time on DC.

    The battset can be 1/4 the size and recharged far faster if required.

    WE have used a 40 year old reefer and no noise , no dead batts and ICECREAM! after a month at the mooring is grand.

    A single solar panel keeps our house and start up "forever" and provides enough excess to operate a 1500W inverter for power tools etc.



    FF

    .
     
  11. GoSlow
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    GoSlow Junior Member

    No, I have not considered propane powered refrigerators. I did not know they existed. Why the need for the drain?
     
  12. Landlubber
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    Condensate
     
  13. FAST FRED
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    Propane is heavier than air , so a propane reefer should be mounted in a deep tray so if there is a leak the gas can simply drain overboard ,1 1/2 overboard vent, rather than into the bilge.

    Diesel boats do not usually have the same engine room components as a gas boat , so a spark is more possible with diesel power than gasoline.

    * A sniffer is OTS ( off the shelf)to control the valve at the tank that supplys the propane.

    These will use 1/2 A @12V DC to monitor the tray and bilge.

    The fuel consumption on a modern unit is very low , about 1/4 pound per day , so a couple of 40lb tanks is a great cruise, including a bunch for the range/oven/broiler and BBQ.

    There are lots of sources in the US , you will have to check locally for both fridges and stand alone freezers.

    Dometic makes RV units but the house units for the off grid folks are better ..thicker insulation and NO electric controls at all.

    Servelle is the brand name.

    Once the reefer and cooking loads are off the genset , all that remains is Air Cond for the entire boat.
    There are now DC air cond setups , made for truck sleeping areas , might do a smallish cabin ,overnight on batterys.

    For the entire boat DC wont work , so take a look at the chilled water systems they will heat or cool. Carrier.

    FF
     
  14. Landlubber
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    Don't forget gas is only good vertical, so cannot be used on yachts.
     

  15. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    Don't forget gas is only good vertical, so cannot be used on yachts.

    If you mean the gas cylinders must be vertical to take off gas , not liquid (as used in vehicles or gensets) that is correct.

    But with a proper installation marine propane is fine.
    Both tanks and users in self draining wells.(Although its seldom done for ranges.)

    The biggest hassle is the weight of the tanks as they have to be removed to refill.

    Being lazy we use the 20lbs (5)tanks , and simply exchange them as required .

    A cruiser might have to take his tanks to the refill , so what easily lifts into the trunk of a Taxi is a concern.

    FF
     
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