Hogfish Maximus - 44ish sailing sharpie?

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by DennisRB, Sep 23, 2010.

  1. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Chris thanks for all the info on the blog, Imaginary Number thanks for the link [​IMG]

    Maybe some photoshop enthusiast can scale these -- pic 1 -- pic 2 -- pic 3 -- to the right size and find the right HFM pictures to put the rig on . . :) - - (picture source)

    P.S. - Oh well, maybe the linked square head main is so narrow and the code zero so big that HFM's mast needs to move aft in a photoshop picture . . :confused:
     
  2. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Found a video of the above Shockwave . . .


    * I think the Isolotti dei Monaci in Italian ~ Îlots des Moines in French ~ Islets of the Monks in English ~ is meant here, which is SW off coast Corsica. Kinda ~ translation It ~ translation Fr ~ into Enlish. These rocky Islets can be found @ 41° 27′ 23″ N 8° 54′ 29″ E
     
  3. Sailor Alan
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    Sailor Alan Senior Member

    Thanks Imaginary Number, fascinating history and very through.

    Whilst we are on the subject off fantasy, and having only recently come to cruising from a lifetime of racing, often across oceans, in exclusively single stick rigs, often fractional as well, I have come to the conclusion that two sticks is defiantly better for cruising. We're I rigging Hogfish, I might use something like this. It's quite traditional on the American East coast, and down into the Caribean as well I beleave.

    Though to be honest, I would probably actually rig the boat as a wide set ketch, like Beowulf, or 'Red Herring', with a ~44' deck stepped main, and a 36' deck stepped mizzen, high aspect ratio loose footed sails, and roller furling on both Genoa and Mizzen Staysail. The latter demountable, rather like the new Americas Cup catamarans 'jib'. The rig would have roughly the same total area as Hogfish does now, just split up a bit, and with longer total leading edge. The wide spaced masts help the sails be a bit more independant.

    I appreciate being able to lower masts without help, and would make arrangements to do this. I also sometimes wonder whether reefing the masts too is worth while, ie a Gunther main and mizzen.

    The reason for the split rig is purely for sail balance along that nice long waterline. Being able to trim the mizzen for balance reaching and beating is very useful, and to a certain extent counteracts the 'twitchy ness' of the dagger board and seperate blade rudder.

    Clearly Chris's opinion is different, as will be most other forum members.
     

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  4. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    The fact that the skipper of Happy "spen(t) the night on the overturned hulk of a steel wreck" would seem to indicate that steel boats don't always survive and get dragged off the rocks, though.
     
  5. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Right, there are several wrecks of freighters there that maybe were too big to drag off with the equipment there available, or just not worth the effort, so they were left there to rot away....

    Below an example of one of those long time New Caledonian wrecks, don't know the exact location of this one...

    [​IMG]


    Here's a remarkable story of two the same Liberty Ships with both the same name Ever Prosperity, sequentially named I think, that were both wrecked there by the same captain on almost the same place just off Nouméa, the capital of New Caledonia . . . .

    Below the Liberty Ship Ever Prosperity, grounded in 1965.

    [​IMG]

    Below the Liberty Ship Ever Prosperity which was grounded in 1970.

    [​IMG]

    The next one is the same 1970 wreck taken from the other side.

    [​IMG]

    The one wrecked in 1970 lies at 22°27'20.7"S 166°22'00.7"E, just south off Nouméa on New Caledonia, the one wrecked in 1965 lies a bit NW of it at 21°54'38.5"S 165°45'19.0"E, zoom in to see the wrecks, zoom out to see the distance of the reefs and banks to New Caledonia and its capital Nouméa, there are clickable pictures at the bottom of the linked pages of which the supply changes when zooming in and out on the satellite view.

    Howard could well have sought shelter for the night in one of these Liberty ship wrecks as they were 12 and 17 years there at that time (1982) and must have been in a better shape than in the above quite recent pictures where they are rotting away for almost half a century.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2015
  6. Sailor Alan
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    Sailor Alan Senior Member

    Astounding story. Did the Liberty ship captain have a girlfriend on Noumea?
     
  7. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Don't know about the girlfriend, be just checked the story on Wrecksite.eu. Most of the story could well be true as both ships had the same last owner and both had the same name which could be sequentially given after the first one was lost and the captain could move onto the next ship. The 1965 wreck can be identified on the pictures by the bow as a Liberty Ship. The 1970 wreck has the bow off and is deteriorated in such a way that I can't get any type out of the pictures.

    But the 1970 wreck isn't an SS but an MV the wrecksite says, and was built in 1952 in Japan, but has quite similar dimensions of the Liberty Ships.

    So the two wrecks were not sister ships, that is if the data on the wrecksite about the 1970 wreck is correct, which is simply to establish if "someone" is going to look whether there's a steam or diesel engine in the 1970 wreck.

    - - - SS Ever Prosperity [+1965] - - - MV Ever Prosperity [+1970] - - -

    The appearances and the locations and dates are consistent with the above post, except for the below 1979 picture which was uploaded in 2005 and in the 26 intermediate years looks to be swapped between the two . . .

    [​IMG]

    Notice the view obliquely from behind, which doesn't provide a good visibility of the steepness of the bow, but more displays a view on the longitudinally hull curvature towards the bow I think.

    Here and on the 1970 wrecksite link it says above picture is the 1970 wreck, but from the Google satellite view and the more recent pictures, on which alas the wrecks also are more deteriorated, it looks more like the 1965 Liberty Ship wreck to me, so it could be a copied mistake, also it looks like a Liberty Ship to me, which is in contradiction with the other info on the linked 1970 wrecksite page.

    For comparison below the SS Jeremiah O'Brien, one of the only two preserved Liberty Ships...

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Sailor Alan
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    Sailor Alan Senior Member

    Angelique,

    Thank you for the excellent information.

    As I am sure you know, the 'Libertty Ship' was based on an existing British design, and chose simple triple expansion steam for propulsion because it did not require a reduction gear. It's older steam technology was also simple to operate, so less training was needed for the crew. It was quite successful, though generally disparaged for its appearance, but widely coppied after WW2 in both steam reciprocating and diesel motor, rarely turbine. It is totally possible the second ship was a Japanise built 'copy' (just similar really) of the Liberty Ship with diesels, hence the MV designation.

    On a reef as exposed as that, I guess he was glad to find a wreck to shelter on, or in.
     
  9. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Thanks Alan,

    I did know Liberty Ships were based on an existing British design and about their twin oil-fired boilers and the triple-expansion steam engine.

    But I didn't know they were widely copied after WW II as steamers but also with diesel engines.

    So it could well be the 1970 wreck is a copied "sister ship" of the 1965 wreck, with the diesel engine and the land of origin as the main differences. Which, if it's a copy of a Liberty Ship, also could mean the info of the above 1979 picture being the 1970 wreck, with the bow still on, is correct.

    I don't agree with the general disparage for their appearance though, when looking at the SS Jeremiah O'Brien and the SS John W. Brown I think they're beautiful . . . . :)

    [​IMG]
    SS John W. Brown on the Great Lakes in 2000.

    The general disparage for their appearance could have been caused by the often heavy and chaotic burden these Ladies had to carry, and being badly maintained after the war while suffering from many war wounds that were poorly patched just to survive for the time being....

    [​IMG]
    - click pic to enlarge -


    Aerial of SS John W. Brown outbound from the United States carrying a large deck cargo after her conversion to a "Limited Capacity Troopship."

    It probably was taken in the summer of 1943 during her second voyage.

    Just made a kinda related post about the "polynesian fantasy" paintings on SS Jeremiah O'Brien's bow gun armor, which are barely visible in above post #277 bottom picture . . . . :eek:

    Sorry for the distraction, now back to HFM stuff I guess . . . . :cool:
     
  10. Sailor Alan
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    Sailor Alan Senior Member

    Angelique,

    Not my opinion either. Franklin Rooseveldt called them 'a dreadful looking object' when he was launching one of the earley ones, and Time Magazine described them as 'ugly Ducklings' so someone, somewhere, must have thought so. I'm not sure if they actually pioneered an apearence, but certainly most post war cargo ships looked remarkably like them, at least until the latest bridge aft fashion apeared.
     
  11. Sailor Alan
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    Sailor Alan Senior Member

    Yes, electrically at least, this is the same class of process. Modern car body process, and incidently the process used on the steel parts of Boeing Landing gear, is a 'wet' process, that uses electric polarity to move the molecules to the right place. My process was also 'wet' in the sence that the surfaces were flushed with liquid during the process, but were not 'dipped' in the classic sence.

    I'm sure the marshes around the Dawlish River were perminantly damaged by us using this process, and would not really recomend this, unless fairly desperate.
     
  12. Sailor Alan
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    Sailor Alan Senior Member

    Thanks Imaginary Number for this informative link. And to get back to 44' ocean crossing sharpie/skiffs

    These imaginings parallel and mirror my own thoughts inspired by Bolger and Morejohn et-al. I particularly like the light weight version toward the end of the sketches, but I cannot read the dimensions on the image. I might change the internal arrangement slightly, and make the main sail smaller whilst increasing the Mizzen, but I am sure these work with the interior as drawen, and I would have to alter both to get a different rig.
     
  13. chris morejohn
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    chris morejohn Junior Member

    Wrecks, masts

    Sailor Alan and others.
    WYFY good this morning in Antigua as Danny the storm just passed by.
    Talking of wrecks, here in the Atlantic basin and Caribbean they are all over the place. If on the windward side of islands the steel ones seem to last forever in their slow death. But in the harbors they are divided about equally between fiberglass and steel. Wood wrecks just decompose quicker. In storms or just screw ups in going ashore steel boats sink just as quick as the others as their rudders pull out or the ports go under. On a sandy beach steel will survive hands down. There are lots of sunk boats down here that have perfectly good masts on them still. All abondoned. Fiberglass boats are easier to salvage once you have permission with a saws awl.
    The reason I do not like the two mast set up like on the Cheaseke Bugeye for small offshore boats under 50' are as follows... The mast rake is terrible for going up in a bosuns chair. The booms in light airs want to swing in so have to be vanged. The forward mast is right where you want a nice cabin bunk. Also makes working on the fordeck a real pain as not much space. The mizzen always is in the best spot for accommodations. When reefing the two masts do not give very good luff drive. You end up with over 45% more mast weight, windage and rigging.
    If sailed properly trim is never an issue. In going to weather the mizzen if not spread out far enough aft will slow the boat down by being back winded from the mainsail. In order to win races a boat must be very fast and efficient to windward first. All the sled type wide boats do not win around the bouy races because they are not fast enough when going to weather. You must sail to weather very well or you will not be safe and will not enjoy your boat.
    In small boats like Rodger Martins Presto the two mast rigg works great with great expense and a well designed hull. Build this boat heavy with solid wood masts or larger diameter aluminum masts she will still go along but at nowhere the same speeds or as well to weather.
    The mast on The HFM can be lowered by one man to the dog house cabin top. Then I need some help in moving the base forward if in a hurry.
     
  14. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Thanks Chris, always good to hear your reasons behind the choices . . . :)
     

  15. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    For a better view on the drawings see Chris posts here: post #69 & #70 - - (I've restored the 2nd link in the below quote)

    Done that and found that by deducting the last number of the above links more of Chris drawings can be found . . . .


    In the lower right corner there's a button for full screen. The 2nd from right lower button displays the drawing on a larger page. In the lower left corner is a slider button for further enlargement. The drawing than can be dragged to the position you want to see by holding the left mouse button and moving the mouse.

    Here's an index page of the drawings - http://issuu.com/bequia22 - idem - http://issuu.com/bequia22/docs - Have fun . . . :)
     
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