Hogfish Maximus - 44ish sailing sharpie?

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by DennisRB, Sep 23, 2010.

  1. Sailor Alan
    Joined: Mar 2014
    Posts: 299
    Likes: 14, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 85
    Location: Gig Harbor WA

    Sailor Alan Senior Member

    Fantastic story and explanation from Chris, and thank you Imaginary Number for posting.

    I hope finally the immersed forefoot discussion can be put to rest.

    I also see this experience as inspiring for all people who want to cruise on a limited budget.

    The rudder is interesting, being easy to clear weeds and other debris from, and protected by a safety/sacrificial 'haul down' line. I also note its mean chord is slightly forward swept for perfect balance. All very sound, and easy to repair as well.

    I am very impressed by the buoyant dagger board, a principle worthy of re-using. I am also impressed by how it can 'give' slightly swinging aft a few degrees under impact. It appears to have about 2' (25%) of its length buried in the boat, perhaps less, And I wonder how it stands lateral forces like this. Obviously it does, but is it just a good fit, or is their some other support.

    The mixture of high aspect ratio foils coupled with low aspect ratio sails is interesting. It clearly works, and it has low operation labor, and probably low maintainance as well. Gilberj reminds us that high aspect ratio foils need a bit of forward motion to grip at all, and clearly this is not an issue on Hogfish. I think I might personally use a higher aspect ratio, full batten, loose footed boom, ketch rig, but then that's me.
     
  2. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,133
    Likes: 474, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Bolger's comments (and others like Chapelle) about sharpie bows being above the LWL are often misunderstood. They are correct, in that if you're looking for speed and efficiency underway, you'll want the bow clear. The reasons are a little complex, but try to picture the entry of a heeled flat bottom waterlines. The entry half angle will be sharp and clean, so the leeward surge wave is small, therefore less resistance and more speed potential. Yeah it'll pound and make noise, but it's part of the trade to take advantage of the typical hull form shapes employed. If the bow is buried, there's a much bigger leeward surge wave and wider entry half angle, both making drag, resistance and limiting performance potential. On a cruiser, a choice needs to be made as to the boats potential, compared to it's comfort. It's going to easier to live on a boat with a buried bow, so not a difficult decision for most.
     
  3. DennisRB
    Joined: Sep 2004
    Posts: 1,268
    Likes: 25, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 228
    Location: Brisbane

    DennisRB Senior Member

    Cool blog updates. Chris M says in the real world the 6" or so of bow immersion makes pretty much no difference to the performance in a seaway for obvious reasons. When the bow is going up and down several feet over the waves this would appear to make sense.
     
  4. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,133
    Likes: 474, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    It's hard to quantify performance attributes on a hull like this, which has limited potential. I don't think these types of comments can't be supported within any reasonable debate of informed designers. Sharpie racers long ago proved, the value of getting to bow out and the hydrodynamics support this belief, so suggestions that there's no difference is simply denying historical observation, experience and hydrodynamic study. On Chris's hull (again) there's a considerable set of performance limiting features, that would nullify a bow free modification, but for what she is, it looks to serve the SOR well, which is the whole point of any design and the owner is happy, so . . .
     
  5. frank smith
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 980
    Likes: 14, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 185
    Location: usa

    frank smith Senior Member

    So, maybe it is not really a sharpie at all.
     
  6. Jamie Kennedy
    Joined: Jun 2015
    Posts: 541
    Likes: 9, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 117
    Location: Saint John New Brunswick

    Jamie Kennedy Senior Member

    Much of the virtue of a sharpie is the economy with which one can be built.
    In that respect also, I am not such Hogfish qualifies as a sharpie.

    Not that she is without virtues of her own.
     
  7. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,133
    Likes: 474, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    In technical terms, no she's not a true sharpie, but more a skiff hull form. Some call these modified sharpies.
     
  8. ImaginaryNumber
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 424
    Likes: 49, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 399
    Location: USA

    ImaginaryNumber Imaginary Member

  9. chris morejohn
    Joined: Apr 2011
    Posts: 33
    Likes: 10, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 48
    Location: St. Augustine Fla.

    chris morejohn Junior Member

    Sharpie bows

    Par and others,
    You all are correct in explaining about "Sharpie" bows being faster under sail if they are out of the water. Just look at Ray Hunts classic 110 designs and her sister ships. These will plane in the right conditions. But a 40' version with its deep keel will pound and have to be sailed light.
    All of the Sharpies that are in Chappells books were designed as work boats and all lines drawings are showing them at light ship load. When full of oysters or cargo thoses bows will be way underwater on their return trip home.
    But Their racing cousins will have bows above the water and will not be sailed off shore sailing the oceans.
    The HFM is limited in speed for sure by her displacement. But so is all offshore designed sailboats that need to carry a load. A Valiant 40, a Tyanna, et. All.
    I have said before here in this thread that I call the HFM and flat bottom sailing barge type hull. Traditional Sharpies have way more flare, lousy rudder systems for TODAYS off shore sailing. Take most all those old hull lines and add a proper rudder to them and it's a game changer, oh yea, add more freeboard, build in modern materials for up keep, lighten the spars and get better luff drive and on and on. If you want to race a plywood boat you cares about what it's like at rest.
    If you want to live aboard and will be only sailing for short periods I would lessen the displacement but still have the bow underwater at least 4" at rest with that boats full load. Or get ear plugs and sleep in the stern. Oh yea make sure the stern is insulated as if it's high out of the water it too will pound like hell in the right chop.
     
  10. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,133
    Likes: 474, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Hey, I agree Chris. I love real sharpies, I sailed a lot of them as a kid (grew on the Chesapeake). There were two general types, the light ones and the heavy ones, both actively raced. The heavy ones where the working craft, file planked bottoms, heavy frames, while the light ones were the racing variants. These were never intended to carry more than their crew and their performance was far better than the work boats.

    Sharpies have to be pretty darn big for an effective cruiser, unless you're 5' tall. As a cruiser, a real sharpie would be a beast on the hook, in deep water and blasting through a rough slosh. Enter the skiff or modified sharpie. These typically have more wetted area, deeper rocker, a buried forefoot, etc. all for logical reasons. Pounding on a cruiser just isn't something you can live with. A 6:1 beam/length ratio also is unreasonable for most, delicate appendages and rig, all typical of sharpies, but not such a good ideas on a cruiser.

    When I make a decision about a cruiser hull form, I look at how much displacement I need on the desired length and speculated equipment. If the rocker on the flat bottom gets pretty fat, I strongly consider the V bottom instead. If this rocker can be kept modest, so wave making is minimized, the flat bottom is the obvious choice, for several reasons. In flat bottom designs, I've found the run to be most important, assuming reasonable entry angles. This is where you can get a moderately burdened flat bottom to exceed theoretical speeds, but you have to get a sweet run, by well placed volume distribution.
     
  11. ImaginaryNumber
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 424
    Likes: 49, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 399
    Location: USA

    ImaginaryNumber Imaginary Member

    [Gratefully posted on behalf of Chris Morejohn, as his Island-Time Internet leaves much to be desired when posting photos. The following text has been lightly edited for clarity.]

    Daggerboard
    - [Regarding the foam used to back up the daggerboard in its trunk] I use an old life jacket that I dive down and stuff up into the slot for the foam cushion.

    - It floats so just stays up in there. Has a cloth exterior so when it gets squished nothing goes anywhere.

    -[Regarding the fiberglass plate at the aft end of the daggerboard case, which supports the trailing end of the daggerboard] The fiberglass plate I have is 1/2" thick because I owned a boat building company at the time so I liked building by the NORTHE system which is No Other Route Thought Heavy Enough. A piece of 3/8" plywood would be fine for a few crashes though.

    - The daggerboard in this design goes down to about a foot above the waterline to keep the fittings above the waterline at rest. I like it simple. But you could put all the tackle lower underwater and the board could go deeper. I've done this on racing trimarans. The board length is determined by the boom height and the dinghy that sits above it. I also rely on the side of the hull with the mini Scheel keels on the Chines in going to weather.

    - the aft trailing edge of the daggerboard is 1" wide so it slides up and down very easily and when I hit something it is not so sharp as to cut into anything.

    The board can be cranked down when hard on the wind at anytime. Raising the board, the quickest way is to luff up for a second and up it pops after releasing the down line.

    The board has a sloppy fit which I like as when sailing on the wind it is pressed up against the leeward side. No noise. When offshore I crank it all the way down and then crank up - lift the forward lifting line which then between the two opposing each other holds the board very still.
    If hitting an object it still will pivot back about a foot.

    - the black strips are starboard plastic to be slippery when going up and down. I used to make them out of teak.

    Rudder
    - The pintles and gudgeons are made of fiberglass in simple wood molds. The pintle is a 1" SS shaft that fits perfectly into a 1" ID PVC pipe. This has no play in 26,000 miles of sailing. Very simple. The molds are just three boards screwed together to form a U shape channel. Wax this then glass in about 3/8" thick. Then set your PVC tube in the middle and glass over. Then cut and shape the gudgeons. Bolt to the transom and glass over the outside bolts so no water ever coming in or rust stains.

    - The lower kick up rudder blade pivots on a 1" bolt. You lift it with a line that is in the middle on the trailing edge. This blade wants to float so easy to do.
    To lower I have a block and tackle that pulls it down. The break away line is attached to a pad eye that is screwed into this blade. The line I use to hold it down is 1/4" Dacron. It has broken when I have hit objects and the bottom. To fix at sea I just go in the water and tie the rudder blade forward till I get to an anchorage where I can remove the pin and pull out the blade and redo a new line. Takes minutes. I have broken the line three times when I have forgotten to release the down line when sailing over shoals in big swells. I have hit the bottom with the daggerboard many times.

    -The rudder is made out of Fiberglass on the HFM. I make a sheet of glass that is laid up on a 4x8' plywood table that has Formica on top with wax. I cut out the profile side and glass on strips shaping the front, back, top, and the inner lower blade pocket. I then glass on the other side. Then I add my PVC gudgeons on the front and glass in place using the long 1" SS shaft to align them. This rudder is 1/2" thick on its skin at minimum. It's hollow so it would float. It weighs about 100 lbs total. Very strong and simple to build. The lower blade has a simple foil shape.

    All done in 1-1/2 oz. mat and 18oz. roving. I do not like bi-axial.

    -the Aries wind vane lines go through blocks that hook up to the steering wheel. The aluminum bar on the stern will fit most vanes. Very simple. But I have designed and built a trim tab vane that works off the trailing edge of the rudder. I like the Aries better now as it's very strong and idiot proof from other boaters banging into it.

    Hatches
    - The big white hatches are made in glass and Corecell core. They have a three tiered gutter system and gaskets so when shut they are very watertight.

    - the Dorade boxes have a wide opening that catches the breeze but only a very small slot for the wind to get through that is at the bottom. My idea was that the boat will be sucking the air through as it will always be in motion. They have a large 4" PVC pipe that extends up from the hatch to 3/4" of the top of the box. The wind is sucked through this very narrow gap. There is so much air- breeze being pulled through them that we have to stuff a shirt up into at times as too much air.

    Tankage
    Fuel tanks all have welded on flanges on their sides that are fastened to the interior.

    Water tanks are under the forward bunk that has a beam bolted over them. All the lids that fit over them have secure wooden cleats that are fastened to the hull sides. These lids have to slide under these cleats. Then I have a simple plank that goes over these that slides into a bolted strap. Takes seconds. Very simple.

    Hope this helps,
    Chris Morejohn


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Here's the rudder and my stanchion base for the life lines.
    I use aluminum bar stock to make stanchions as very inexpensive and strong.
    They are 1" thick and go into the 1" PVC just like the rudders.

    [​IMG]
    The block and tackle along the rudder side is to pull down the blade. I used to just kick it down
    by foot but added this a year ago. Now I can pull down without luffing up.

    [​IMG]
    Here you can see the vane lines going to the wheel.
     
  12. frank smith
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 980
    Likes: 14, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 185
    Location: usa

    frank smith Senior Member

  13. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 3,005
    Likes: 327, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 1632
    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Just spotted this nearly finished trailerable* 30.5' shallow draft yawl on the web.

    * max trailer width in the Netherlands is 2.55m, for an indivisible load it's max 3m if width marking signs are used.

    [​IMG]

    L 9.30m × B 2.60m × D 0.35m (board up) 1.58m (board down) - - PDF: [​IMG] drawing + specs

    Large pictures of the nearly finished boat: -- 1 -- 2 -- 3 -- 4 -- 5 -- 6 -- 7 -- 8 -- 9 -- 10 -- 11 -- 12 --

    Designer: Arend Lambrechtsen - - Builder: BootWerk - - Designed and built for use on the Wadden Sea.

    Any idea about her seaworthiness on a larger sea or ocean without the constant possibility to seek shelter if there's a poor weather forecast ?

    P.S. - some info about the Wadden Sea, which is the area of intended use

    The first map dark blue part is the Wadden Sea, length ± 500 km, average width ± 20 km, forming a shallow body of water with tidal flats and wetlands between the islands and the main land. The first map scale indication is in the North Sea.

    [​IMG] - - [​IMG]

    First map from left to right to above: The Netherlands, Germany, Denmark.

    Below in red the Frisian Islands, aka Wadden Islands, aka Wadden Sea Islands.

    [​IMG]

    The islands shield the mudflat region of the Wadden Sea, of which large parts run dry at low tide, from the North Sea.
     
  14. souljour2000
    Joined: Aug 2009
    Posts: 481
    Likes: 13, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 195
    Location: SW Florida

    souljour2000 Senior Member

    Chris, great food for thought as always...I realize now that having a stern-facing helm (especially one that is a worm-geared, quadrant that is direct to the rudder-head type) and a stern- hung rudder is ideal in so many ways: One of them being that when being driven before the wind having a natural inclination to easily view off astern would be helpful in keeping the vessel from broaching conditions...and the easier-repairs to a possibly damaged but more accessible stern-hung rudder and a robust and simplified pintle/gudgeon set-up also seem wise...I think HFMaxII is a strikingly beautiful vessel overall and I am glad you have found the time to share some of her secrets ...
     

  15. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
    Posts: 1,932
    Likes: 128, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 611
    Location: Michigan, USA

    sharpii2 Senior Member

    A more up-to-date definition of a "sharpie yacht"

    According to Chapelle, the working sharpies were always sailed with the base of the stem at or above the waterline. These boats had quite a rise in the stern portion of their rocker. This was to facilitate a lot of weight concentrated astern. When empty, these boats sailed with the transom well out of the water. This sharp rise astern also facilitated a nearly straight run of the of the forward portion of the rocker, with a downward slope, which supposedly made the boats easier to row.

    These boats were originally designed for a single purpose, either fishing or tonging oysters, so had low sides, which gave them a distinctive sleek look.

    This works to some extent for a pleasure boat, but limits the height of any cabin or house. Such a boat would be quite a nice camp cruiser. But the low freeboard also limits the range of stability. I remember, as a teenager, drawing sharpies which followed all of Chapelle's rules, but had higher sides. I saw no reason why higher sides would not work.

    That along with ballast, I reasoned, would insure a much higher range of stability, along with a more livable interior. This was years before I came across my first Bolger book.

    It's amazing how much superstition was passed out as design information in those days.

    I had to wait many years before I would learn how to calculate the heeled centers of buoyancy for mono hulls. Once I was able to do that, I was able to calculate range of stability. Then I knew for certain an ocean-worthy "sharpie" was possible.

    Now days, a sharpie yacht, such as HFM, seems to have as much in common with a dory as it does a sharpie. Dory sailing yachts tend to have wider bottoms than the traditional banks dory, so they will have enough initial stability to carry a decent amount of sail. But they always seem to have significant ballast keels on them.

    Though their bottoms are wider they still seem to need that outside ballast to stand up to their rigs.

    I suppose a more up-to-date definition of a sharpie yacht is: "A boat with a flat bottom, which has considerable rocker, and is nearly as wide as the deck, so the hull's straight sides have low to moderate flair."

    This definition, I believe would distinguish, them from Dory yachts.

    Have any versions of HFM ever been made of steel?

    The design seems to be a nearly perfect candidate. The bottom could be made of much thicker plate and thus double as ballast.

    I was quite amazed at it's displacement. Is it really 16 tons?

    If so, it is only two tons shy of Joshua Slocum's Spray, with considerably (21%) less Beam. I can only imagine what the sources of design wisdom, I had access to, would say about HFM.
     
Loading...
Similar Threads
  1. Willallison
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    2,907
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.