Hogfish Maximus - 44ish sailing sharpie?

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by DennisRB, Sep 23, 2010.

  1. chris morejohn
    Joined: Apr 2011
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    Location: St. Augustine Fla.

    chris morejohn Junior Member

    Light boats, shallow rudders

    Tanton,
    Thanks for the reply. Your interior design is excellent for living aboard. I have sailed with Jim Melcher on his Bolger Manatee design before and after he rerigged it with a Bolger mainsail of similar design to yours. The battens were solid wood so were very heavy. When the mainsail was hoisted in a flat calm the boat heeled over 5 degrees. I told Jim it looked like a step backwards for him. He wanted an easier rig- mainsail to handle at his age at upper 70s. Yet he sailed to Cuba and circumnavigated it and back up to Maine. He had the boat shipped to Europe and did the canals again and then sailed it back across the Atlantic via the West Indies and back to Maine in his 80s. So it's back to people sail boats not boats sail people.
    Your design will be way stiffer than the Bolger Manatee's hard round bilge design. Also with modern materials in battens the sail can be very light. I have been aboard Pete Hills catamaran a while back with a similar mainsail with articulating soft battens that was fantastic. I also have sailed on my buddys Tanton 43' canoe stern cat ketch with its original wishbone rig and after he rerigged it with Chinese lugged mainsails. The Chinese mains gave similar speeds to the original rig but of course are so fun to reef. The new Chinese mains are lighter than the original wish bone mains.
    Jim Melchor built a Bolger Black Skimmer in my boat shop 29 years ago so I got to be part of that build. I am not a fan of building the hull sides in one piece with scarfs or butt blocks in the ply and then lifting up to attach to the bulkheads. To me it takes no time at all to build a proper building jig and then build your boat with double skin at the least. So I agree that the quick and simple way of Bolgers past ideas were great for that time period but with today's costs to build it should be done properly so you have a life time boat. Plywood is not cheap any more.
    With my first Sharpie design I built a typical Bolger balanced rudder with an end plate on the bottom. It worked but not at sea. Too shallow at 20" deep for offshore work. I changed it for a kick up rudder that was vertical. Game changer! Total control at all times in all seas. I then went on to log thousands of offshore miles with this rudder design.
    In my next designed sharpie "Jubilee" a 40' yawl the rudder was perpendicular to the stern and drew 4'5" down with finger tip control.
    On the Black Skimmer if the kick up rudder was not fully down the weather helm was enormous, as it is with all kick up rudders when lifting up. On the Medadow lark it to has to have the rudder as far down as possible or too much helm.
    On the HFM I can feel if the rudder down line is off by a 1/2" by the change in helm. Same thing on Rodger Martins Presto . Any boat design that shows a rudder partly kicked up should be looked at with skeptasisim. On Jubalie I designed the bow to be just under the waterline at load. This was a huge mistake as this boat pounded like crazy at anchor. That's why I have never sold plans for this boat as the whole bow area has to be redisigned. This design is a very fast, and stiff sailor but the bow needs to be lower like oh HFM.
    Twin rudders work on really wide shallow boat hulls . With a narrowish shallow hull the leeward rudder will be always vulnerable to damage. All twin rudder boats I have seen do not sail in shallow water but lower sails and motor into shallower water. Twin rudders will be continually being named by weeds, lines, lobster pots etc. going over the side at night to cut is no fun in the Caribbean or Maine. When motoring in confined areas at slow speeds with out prop wash you have very little control with these small rudders. All that are designed have to work independently of each other if one is damaged. And I mean quickly. I have sailed a lot on catamarans with center outboard engine sleds up to 53' with 33' beams. Not fun to maneuver. On Open 40s with deep rudders and 8' keels not so bad.
    So just some observations and opinions to pass on .
     
    Angélique likes this.
  2. gilberj
    Joined: Oct 2010
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    gilberj Junior Member

    Hi Chris,
    Thanks for the long and detailed post. You clearly speak with a lot more authority on these boats than I. I have only started sailing the Meadowlark 5 years ago and have limited experience in similar craft both before and since. With regards to the Meadowlark and the drop down rudder. The change in steering is noticeable, only in that the centre of effort of the rudder has moved from about 6 inches from the Pintle in the down position to about 20 inches in the fully raised position. The change is the geometry is simply a change in leverage. There is no perceptible change in boat balance. I do sail almost exclusively with the rudder in the fully down position.
    FYI We were family friends with Bob Todd who along with Jim Melcher and others sponsored the design of the Manatee. I never had the chance to sail her.
     
  3. chris morejohn
    Joined: Apr 2011
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    chris morejohn Junior Member

    Meadow lark

    Gilberji
    The thing about a Meadow Lark ketch is that It was designed by an artistic genius. With its very simple freeboard, moderate rig and I mean that just having two small gaffs instead of complicated lugs and such makes this boat very easy to sail. Today we have square head mains. I have sailed on an original one with a wheel that was run off a drum with lines going to blocks. The boat was built as designed carvel planked. This was 32 years ago. I have also sailed on an Alan Viatase fiberglass one that was very nicely done. But keep that rudder down till in shallow water.
    Jim Melchor was a mentor to me. Really respected that guy. Very good sailor.
    He sailed that Bolger every where and really showed what a shallow draft contraption could do in the right hands.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2015
  4. gilberj
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    gilberj Junior Member

    Thanks for the reply Chris. As you say the Meadowlark was designed by an artistic genius. Almost any changes in the boat makes it ugly, yet it has a subtle grace and visual balance. The short gaffs work really well. the geometry of the sail plan works really well. In this day and age very possibly the sails would be the fat head shape we are seeing these days.
     
  5. goodwilltoall
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    A few things I noticed about Hogfish vs Loose Moose in regards to rudders and hence a reason LM can have a smaller and still effective rudder (I would still increase about 33-50% if possible).
    1. Proportionally Hogfish has much more wetted area, displacement, and draft.
    2. Very deep forefoot vs. LM completely out.
    3. Chine runners on Hogfish.
    4. Much bigger skeg on HF.
    5. Aft end on LM also out of water.
    6. LM rudder directly under hull.
    7. LM has end plate.

    The rocker on LM makes it seem it would be one of the easiest boats to turn but I would still definitely put a swing up rudder like on HF with the V-notch and completely vertical. This would cause no space loss, engine would be put to one side and steps/ladder to other side or fuel storage area.
     
  6. goodwilltoall
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    I think if you scale off both boats and equalize according to displacement the rudders would be close to same area size so of course HF rudder would need to be built for deeper cleaner waters do to hull characteristics mentioned above. HF is still a good boat but not quite a fair comparison.

    Peace
     
  7. ImaginaryNumber
    Joined: May 2009
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    ImaginaryNumber Imaginary Member

    The owner of Loose Moose II told me that the as-designed rudder was insufficient. As I recall, he told me that that he added vertical wings to the end plates to make the rudder more effective.

    He also passed on his rudder concerns to Bolger, but when Bolger redesigned LM2 per another client's request (resulting in Le Cabotin/Anenome) Bolger apparently re-used the same insufficient rudder.
     
  8. Sailor Alan
    Joined: Mar 2014
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    Sailor Alan Senior Member

    Gilberj,

    Sorry about the first paragraph, I meant MY generalizations were mostly wrong.

    Yes, we have conversed before, and you have been a great source of information and inspiration too.

    An interesting thing has happened. In the past, all but one the boats I have built, and virtually all I have designed, have been exploiting plywood, and its ability to form conic sections, and/or having high planner strength, useful for webs etc.

    Building this 14' dingy, I have had to rip a lot of stock down, primarily to get the stock cheaper (cost is an issue in the competition, the boat must be launched, ready to race, for $600US), and to get it knot free at the same time. I have even ripped the stock for the foils into strips as well, and glued them back together at odd orientations to avoid warpage etc.

    This has exposed me to the 'joys' and possibilities of battens, the very stuff of a strip planked boat. This got me thinking about strip planking, actually edge glued, over forms or frames, or permanent bulkheads. I have always admired the Canoe Yawl, who hasn't, and that in turn somehow led me back to this forum.

    Thinking about the Meadowlark, a brilliant design, with its 'standard' side profile, merely using different segments of the same profile at different hull stations, it's thicker material on the bottom as wooden ballast, and it's low and powerful rig, were I to contemplate a boat in the 8000lb class, I would be a fool not to build one.

    Assuming I finish the 14' dingy, the races are in September, and I sell it, I'm thinking about its successor. I'm not ready for a 33-34' boat like Meadowlark, but a 22' modified Anhinga might be just right. It IS a bit of a wild hair, but I want to explore water ballast, a wide base (long), high aspect ratio, ketch rig (from LF Herroschoff's ultimate sailing machine, and the subsequent Red Herring), and with the draft carried well aft like the EEK, and similar designs. Eek and Anhinga seem to be the only designs to use this hull form, and neither seem particularly popular. I want to find out why. The boat will be built cheaply, very cheaply, using underlay plywood, and PL Premium Adhesive. Wood sealant will be Rustolium Concrete sealer, clear or white as appropriate. Spars all wood unless i can find really cheap cast off aluminum versions. I would like to explore unstayed spars, but suspect they may be too difficult to build. Sails will be via my newfound expertise at loose footed Mill Spec tarpaulin's.

    Yes, i know a hull with actual rocker, ie the lower hull lines come up to meet the chine at the waterline, like, say, the Birdwatcher, Loose Moose, and AS designs, would be more guarantee of success, but that is hardly the experiment is it.
     
  9. frank smith
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    frank smith Senior Member

    Long micro would be the ticket, IMO. I think it would be fun to do an offshore version with
    a drop board,
     
  10. gilberj
    Joined: Oct 2010
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    gilberj Junior Member

    Been away for a bit...
    Rather than a 22 foot Anhinga version, I'd consider a larger version of Matt Laydens Paradox. He sketched up a couple of boats about that size, that look to me to be interesting. Another possibility might be Bolgers Burgundy, which to my knowledge has never been built, despite being more shapely it is designed with the same basic hull form...ie with the bow just above the waterline and the double ended stern just below. Of course Burgundy is not really trailerable.
     
  11. ImaginaryNumber
    Joined: May 2009
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    ImaginaryNumber Imaginary Member

    Chris has posted a blog about Hogfish Maximus

    Hogfish Maximus the details

    a sample... :)
    [​IMG]
    Our bilge pump that I've had through 4 boats.
    Have never used it but keep it for good Karma.
     
  12. Tanton
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Tanton Senior Member

    I can see the 16 T. Dspl.
     
  13. gilberj
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    gilberj Junior Member

    I am so glad that Chris has filled in a lot of details with regards to the Hogfish.......Interesting reading
     
  14. frank smith
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    frank smith Senior Member

    Very smart design, and one well suited to the home builder.

    F
     

  15. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
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    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Many many thanks to Chris for the comprehensive detail information on Hogfish Maximus [​IMG]

    Also thanks to Imaginary Number for posting the link . . . :)
     
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