Historical multihulls

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Gary Baigent, Feb 26, 2012.

  1. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    Well said, buzzman.

    If I can just make one point; there's not necessarily anything to be smug about when one bit of sporting equipment goes past another, is there? It's often just an expression of different tastes, desires and lives.

    My windsurfers will often go past many cats downwind; that doesn't mean that I have any right to be smug, it's just that I've chosen to use a windsurfer that day and the other guys chose to use a cat. My time trial bicycle will often go past road bikes, hybrids or mountain bikes; that's not something for me to be smug about, it just means that the people on slower gear happen to like slower gear. Our 16 foot cat used to go past Hobie 16s; that's not something to be smug about, it's just that they chose a class with bigger numbers and we chose a class that went faster. Our windsurfers and our cat would go past our dinghies or our yacht; that's nothing to be smug about, they are used for different things.

    But thanks for the post.
     
  2. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    LOL...yeah, women are *much* deadlier than the male of the species.....especailly if they've got their dander up.

    CT - yeah, point taken, but in the context of "them giving us grief" I think we have a right to be *quietly* smug....in the nicest possible way, of course....
     
  3. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    What is considered "common knowledge" 140 years later on the other side of the world is irrelevant to what actually happened. The facts are simply undeniably true on the objective historical record. The cats in NY in the 1800s were recognised, had class races created for them just like class races were created for other types, and were owned by people like YC commodores. They were treated better than other new types like sailing canoes. They were not ostracised. To say that is denying the reality.

    Where is there the slightest bit of evidence that Herreshoff moved away from cats because he didn't want to be "lumbered with extreme designs"? He wrote to his own son about why he got out of cats and he said nothing of the sort.

    So on the one side we have the evidence of written words of the man himself in his own writing (giving other reasons for dropping out of cats) and on the other side we have what?

    You have given no evidence whatsover for your claim. What may have happened to a different person from a different country in a different century is not evidence of what happened in NY in the late 1800s. Either Nat Herreshoff was a liar to his own son, or you are wrong. I'll take the latter.

    Yes, some people had bitter words about multis in earlier times and some people have bitter words and fiction about multis even today. That is sad and wrong and I have never denied it. I have also heard and read bitter abuse and fiction from multi sailors about monos. Class presidents calling them "shitters", but planning to lure away the best kids that mono clubs had taught to sail. My own skipper calling them "shitboxes" even when he had been invited to race with them. Cat clubs banning monos, cat classes banning tris and proas. So let's stop the abuse on both sides and let's look at the truth rather than fiction.
     
  4. oldsailor7
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    "So let's stop the abuse on both sides and let's look at the truth rather than fiction."

    So. What is the truth Chris. :?:
     
  5. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    Old Indian Proverb: "Do not poke sleeping bear with stick".....
     
  6. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    The truth is that the Herreshoff cats were NOT "ostracised". They were owned and raced by people like YC commodores (who rarely ostracise themselves) as shown above. They were raced as a class because that was the way racing was done in those days, in NY and abroad. They tried not to mix different rigs and they tried not to mix different hulls. The 1876 rules of the RYA were quite explicit about that. Having a separate class for cats was simply following the same thinking that lead to separate classes for cutters and schooners.

    Yes, some people may not have liked them. Some people may have insulted them. But many cat sailors don't like monos and many cat sailors insult monos and those who prefer them. If people feel that their own preferred type should not be criticised then surely they should not criticise the type that others prefer.
     
  7. oldsailor7
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    Chris, it's not a matter of what sailors like or don't like.
    It's a matter of new technology taking over the old.
    It's called progress.
    It's called unstoppable evolution.
    It's humanities un-sated greed for speed.
    It's the need to be first, the top of the heap.
    Numero Uno.
    That's why two Orma 60 catamarans are planning to stage
    a "Demonstration Event" in conjunction with the forthcoming
    Sydney-Hobart race.
    Can't wait. :D
     
  8. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    Pat I disagree.....not everyone wnats to be 'top of the heap'.

    Not everyone *wants* to use the latest technology.

    If evolution was unstoppable, the the Herreschoff 19thC cats would have displaced the older monos. They didn't.

    Evolution is not always "survival of the fittest". SOmetimes evolution goes off on a tangent and theat brach of the evolution tree simply stops growing - like the H cats.

    Later, on a different branch of the tree, others "revived" the notion of multis: Bisschop et al, and there has been fairly steady 'evolution' of various multi designs since WWII.

    But still the majority of sailors prefer monos. It is *definitely* about choice.

    And all the cultural and perception points I raised earlier.

    But can I make the point that this 'discussion' is getting us seriously off-track......

    Maybe, over a longer time frame than we've seen, multis may one day out-evolve monos.

    Frankly, I doubt it,as the monos are still cheaper to build, and while capitalism rules, the cheaper boats will be built, especially for cargoes etc.

    Where the lighter weight and greater speed of the multis has some perceived benefit over and above the basic utility, they will be the chosen form: eg: inter-island cat ferries for example, and fast-deploy military cats...or ORMA racing boats....

    It is horses for courses....let's leave at that. :) :)
     
  9. proagenesis
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    proagenesis Junior Member



    hello ..... I fully agree with your argument > that a better design > will not automatically >
    be accepted by the public > as we have experienced for some decades now >

    see more on >
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/hinged-bruce-foil-proa-47040-6.html

    or see about the history of our own development from 1968 on >

    http://history.interproa.org


    regards the team of proagenesis


    http://proagenesis.org
     
  10. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    People will make whatever choice suits their needs and budget all of the choices are legitimate. Being out there living the cruising and sailing lifestyle is surely the most important thing.
     
  11. oldsailor7
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    Well said Corley.:cool:
     
  12. catsketcher
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    catsketcher Senior Member

    Live and let live

    There was a multi based slip yard that had an awful sticker it would put on the multis it hauled. It was

    "If it aint a cat, it's a dog"

    I never could understand that. All I wanted growing up with my Nugget in mono orientated Sydney in the 80s was to have my choices accepted. (I raced monos and cruised multis). Now they are - cruising cats are very well regarded and we have many multis racing in many events. I feel that we have attained what we wanted.

    I think it is churlish to now give back all that we put up with in the 70s and 80s. The only thing to do is to wish all people well in their choice. Any multihuller who still has their feet firmly planted in the ground of aggravation and vitriol hasn't been where I have been sailing in the last two decades. My wife loves Dragons and no kidding I would love to get one if I didn't have too many boats already - they are great boats. My cat is not better because it is faster.

    As CT says one of the great conspiracy theories is that the NYYC banned cats and stopped their development for a century or more. I can't see how they could be so powerful all around the world even if they were malicious (which they weren't). Obviously the cats didn't work in that day as well as monos. For some reason because books like Mike McMullen says that Amaryllis got banned the multi establishment say the NYYC stopped multi development for a hundred years. But why? How could a single yacht club stop development around the world? It doesn't add up. Why couldn't the cat owners make their own association and race as much as they want? Well they could but didn't.

    The problem is that it is still easy to fall into the same old trap as in the bad old days and start name calling again. Let's face it - if multis were great race boats for most sailors we should have been able to get all those mono sailors into them by now. We haven't so we should be able to accept that multis don't cut if for most sailors. No conspiracy, no ignorance, just a weighing up of choices and a decision and guess what - most people think multis are not for them. We should always allow diversity of opinion. Every time I hear a multihuller say nasty things about monos I think either
    - they haven't sailed something like - Caprice of Huon, a Farr 1104, a Laser with 100 other boats, a skiff with a big kite, an IOR boat in a joggle offshore which demands all your attention to get moving or an Alden Malabar 5. Fab sails I have had that no multi could ever give me.

    OR

    - they have vitriol in their DNA, like the war veterans who hate the Japanese or whatever side. I accept their choice as they saw more than me but I hope for the future's sake they fade away as soon as possible.

    cheers

    Phil
     
  13. proagenesis
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    proagenesis Junior Member

    ..... well sayed phil .... but I need to add >>>

    that people dont have the choice of what boat they like !
    because most are arrested in their position in society >

    they dont develop further any it all > but are stagnating at any one point !
    and this is what makes it soooo difficult
    to bring some thing new into the scene !

    sooo .... I see this > but there is of cource little I can do about .....
    but keep on doing > what we have been doing some 30 years

    to continue to developing a new type of sailing vessel .....
    with a whole new range of abilities not even imagined by myself decades ago !

    http://proagenesis.org

    and showing where we started 45 years ago > http://history.interproa.org

    for more see ..... http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/hinged-bruce-foil-proa-47040-6.html

    for videos see > http://proatech.org starting at the top
    or > http://www.studiobunker.de/vector_foil_proa_test4.htm
    dont let your self be discouraged from this unknown language
    just click on any picture you want to see the video ......

    regards the team of proagenesis


    .
     
  14. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Catsketcher Phil, very balanced and sensible writing, as usual - BUT, and I'm not talking back many years, say 3 decades, okay a little more, here, in the Auckland multihull club we introduced the Coastal Classic Race 30 odd years ago --- in an attempt to introduce a great course race while at the same time, reduce the hatred that emanated from conservative monohull sailors towards multihulls. We wanted to be buddies.
    Because, removing rose tinted Ray Bans, we were persona non grata, scum of the earth, to some monohull bigots in those days.
    This was a little after the period when Piver, Crowther and Nicol losses occurred and anyone multihull was literally considered insane.
    And so with some naivity and trepidation, the Auckland/Russell race was introduced with classes for ALL boat types.
    We need not have worried; the mixed fleet CC has been a resounding success and has been the main catalyst for acceptance between the two yacht types. There is no conflict now ... well, okay, just good natured ribbing that might get alcoholic fueled emotional ... occasionally.
    But old farters still remember how it was, suffering the slings and arrows ... and old memories die hard.
    But we will fade away, ha.
     

  15. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    The actual problem I believe now is the high cost of entry and ownership of a modern multihull (the high resale value is a double edged sword). If you are satisfied with a basic multihull then it's still possible to get on the water without vast expense but most people have a minimum standard of fit out they have in mind and relatively speaking it's quite high. It's a bit like cars now most items that were options in the 70's are now standard equipment. You used to have to order a car heater as an optional extra for example! Expectations of a minimum level of fitout have grown exponentially. In general in water boat storage costs have increased greatly and the ability to moor a boat inexpensively has declined.

    This I believe is where Ian Farrier has knocked the nail on the head with his F22 a reasonably affordable and easily trailerable production trimaran with some basic cruising amenity easily towed with a family car. You can skip a lot of the large expenses and inconveniences which are attached to yacht ownership and go straight to the good bits. If he can ramp up production and bring down the cost of entry it's a real winner. We have witnessed this transistion in the MYCV where the bulk of the membership now has trailer multis and we only have a few larger multihulls.

    By the way this is not an ad for Ian Farrier but I think his market research is dead on as the trailer multi in a smaller size range is where there is potential for multihull ownership to grow significantly imo. I look at the future and predict that the most prolific modern multihull that belongs to an individual will be smaller and most likely sit on a trailer. I guess you could say that is true already if you include beach cats.
     
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