Hinged Bruce Foil Proa

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Manfred.pech, May 7, 2013.

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  1. proagenesis
    Joined: Jun 2013
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    proagenesis Junior Member


    ..... well ..... I have been trying the vfp not only in models but in a 23' and a 31'
    together we have spend about a year on these boats !

    and there is no problem what so ever with low speeds and gusts
    even standing still > being parked > you can do what ever you want
    there is no problem .... as long the whole concept is followed

    meaning no large rudders > to keep the boat its self to going to lee ward
    as soon as the fin is not keeping it from doing so !

    I have no idea what video you are talking about > it must be loonys
    bad copy of ours ..... he seems to have a hvf to small ..... not the right aoa etc

    now if the vfp is working > there can be no reason for the hvfp not working fine
    especially after all those model test with the hvfp

    for those .... you can just check all the links shown here .... as well as mike stolles !
    while all mine are 1 mast + wind ward sail rigs > he has all 2 mast rigs tried out !

    as far as the purpose > we could use this hvfp for any type >
    but my and mikes ... and proa 1001 priority is safe and comfortable ... fast cruising
    while costing 10% of a cat of comparable loa >

    by the way > mike has been doing al lot of cruising with his acat >
    a 18' small toronado like racing cat .....

    and he is beaching the thing at night >
    and he wants to do the same with his coming some 30' hvfp
    as soon as his recording company has the second recording studio in place

    he his doing most of the pr work in his native language ....
    in groups like at the yacht forum .... with me trying it here

    the third member is not it all interested in communicating in groups
    because he doesnt think it will bring anything it all > and I have no arguments to .....

    the fourth member is helping with logistics > like computer hard and software
    so we can be concentrating an our work

    if there was not the lokal gov doing what it does best !


    regards the team of proagenesis


    .
     
  2. proagenesis
    Joined: Jun 2013
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    proagenesis Junior Member

    ...... well .... I have tried .... the vfp about a year long together >
    and I have a many time hit some thing ....
    like on beaching the sand below or a fishing net

    and every time the boat has turned around the fin ... period !
    what else could it do ?

    you can believe this or not > I am at the point > that I couldnt care less !

    a dagger board will always be shaved off > when hit at a big enough speed
    and a center board > who would be considering ...... ?

    as far as a pivoting fin .... if I would see any problems > we could be doing that !
    no problem ......

    as far as the hvfp > it is being renovated at this time > being so old > < 20 years !
    and as we all know .... the gov here is doing the best to enslave every one for taxes ....

    so ..... if you are not satiesfied with this >
    you should be voting for some inteligent party !
    supporting citizens in doing the best they can .....

    and not having made a bad copy of some ones project and then bragging about it every where
    that this bad copy will not self steer properly > hitting piles many a times !
    and will not be safe in any swell etc etc

    by the way > I have heard from some > that manfred pech studied telling fairy tales ....
    is this true ?


    regards the team of proagenesis


    .
     
  3. proagenesis
    Joined: Jun 2013
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    proagenesis Junior Member

    ..... well ....
    we could use a hinge as shown
    to use an asymetrical and one way sections on our fin in use !

    but making this curved so it would be self adjusting
    that would be a perfect section > like on any aeroplane .....

    but then ... we ... would have an imminent danger situation
    every time we would be changing directions ...
    would need to have this hinge .... the controlling part thereof !

    sooo .... as much as I can say at this time ....

    the small disadvantage of having a less then perfect fin section
    meaning a asymetrical two way section >
    will not warrant all problems it will create .....

    the only thing I can think of right now >
    would be to having 2 different fins to install like a dagger board
    in a speed trial vessel > so to having both direction available !

    here are some links ..... http://www.proatech.org
    http://www.proadesign.com

    http://www.studiobunker.de/vector_foil_proa_test4.htm
    dont let your self be discouraged from this unknown language
    just click on any picture you want to see the video ......

    http://www.galacticdesign.org


    .
     
  4. proagenesis
    Joined: Jun 2013
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    proagenesis Junior Member

    ..... well .... I am not needing to think any .... on your posting !
    because I have experienced all this many a times ......

    if the fin is hitting any thing > the boat will turn around it > >
    because the mass of the fin itself > is not enough for it to being destroyed !

    and .... if the fin would ever get off or out of the water > the lateral area center
    will be moving drastically forward > making the boat to shoot up into the wind >

    but > you just look at > http://proatech.org >
    or here > http://www.studiobunker.de/vector_foil_proa_test4.htm
    just click at any picture to see the video >

    and see what a hvfp will survive !

    and then you could be telling me >
    what other boat concept would even have a chance at surviving such ?

    soooo .... why do you keep beating your drum about things you know nothing about ?


    .
     
  5. groper
    Joined: Jun 2011
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    groper Senior Member

    I tried not to be insulting, but your website is a joke...

    Index of /

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    [VID] 100_0008tr.mov 12-Jun-2009 08:45 20M
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    no labels or descriptions on any of the videos - how the hell do i know which one has what im looking for?

    The videos all seem to be of small models... where is the videos of your full size proa you claim to sail in bft10? And what a waste of bandwidth, 18M for a 30sec video of something with no description... theres about 100M of data ill never get back, and i still never saw anything i was hoping for - just a bunch of little models on a lake...

    The entire website looks very poor, if you wish to improve your image and exposure - which is why you keep beating your drum here - fix your website and only then might anybody take you seriously!

    Go ahead and build a 40ft boat and crash it into a sand bar, see what happens to your fin then, will the boat pivot around? until you do, how do YOU know? I have built many radio controlled boats, cars, planes and helicopters. I can crash them repeatedly with little or no damage and keep driving them... models dont prove damage survivability very well - but i guess you missed that in your reasoning :rolleyes:
     
  6. proagenesis
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    proagenesis Junior Member

     
  7. Manfred.pech
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    Manfred.pech Senior Member

    Groper, don`t waste your time with all this stuff. On the picture below you can see the difference between the hinged Bruce foil - which is new - and the old stub keel (german = Stummelkiel) of low aspect ratio under the float of the Roth 31ft proa which is said to have been "tested" in Spain. There is no witness for this nor for "force 10" storm in this period.

    [​IMG]


    It is one of the fairy tales of proafantasy that this low aspect ratio keel is a "vectorfoil". It is nothing more than a stub keel - not even canted. The big difference between the two foils and the exposed position of the hinged foil can be seen clearly from the pic. The hinged foil can not be compared with the small low aspect ratio keel. No Vector foil has been sailed and tested in Spain.

    The only Hinged Bruce Foil Proa, which has been successfully sailed with good and interesting results is the boat of the engineer Bernd ?- calling himself "loony". Tired of all the mass of aggressive postings of proafantasy in german "Yacht" forum, loony has stopped to report and discuss his results while developing his boat further. "Proadesign" is blocked in german "Yacht" forum.

    [​IMG]

    The only Hinged Bruce Foil Proa which has got a patent is the work of Giles Whittacker (retired Physicist).

    [​IMG]
     
  8. CutOnce

    CutOnce Previous Member

    Actually, I've seen another - but in an unusual boat and location. There is a cruising proa out of Phuket, Thailand called Nixe (Mermaid in German). Here's a URL with a picture showing the hinged Bruce foil - located between the Ama and Vaka. The owner/builder felt there was enough merit in the concept to try it and has found so far that it does seem to deliver.

    He's going to follow through with more reporting on foil's performance over time. He appears to have been very careful in avoiding the controversy surrounding Mr. Roth, while still interested in the possible technical merits of the idea.

    --
    CutOnce
     
  9. Manfred.pech
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    Manfred.pech Senior Member

    Thank you CutOnce, you are right. The proa of Alexander seems to be another example for a well working hinged foil and he is a good example avoiding controversy which does not pay out. I`m interested to read more about the results.

    And --- this foil is well protected between the main hull and the float - as you wrote. Robert Biegler (http://www.ayrs.org/Catalyst_N23_Jan_2006.pdf, page 20 to 34) has built and tested a similar foil. Thanks for the link to proafile.

    [​IMG]

    Drawing of Robert Biegler.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  10. proagenesis
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    proagenesis Junior Member


    ..... well > where is the boat ?
    mine is standing down there to be refurbished .....
    because be fore we test the new fin >
    I want it to be good looking after all these years since 1995!

    and we are in no rush ....
    since there is no competion any where in sight


    ps .... alexanders fin on nixe is a non functioning hvf > simply a " dagger board " >
    copied from our artikel in the proafile forum


    .
     
  11. Timothy
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    Timothy Senior Member

    Hinged foil windward , fixed surface piercing leeward?
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Manfred.pech
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    Manfred.pech Senior Member

    Did you test a model ?
     
  13. Timothy
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    Timothy Senior Member

    No . I just came up with the idea after looking at the set up on "Nixie"and thought it might be worth examining.
     
  14. Timothy
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    Timothy Senior Member

    Sorry that is "Nixe" The proa in the picture in the link provided by CutOnce.
     

  15. proagenesis
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    proagenesis Junior Member

    ..... well ... I would appreciate you doing that !

    > by the way .... I will make a picture of the cut off part of the vector fin today
    and post it here > and I have made 5 hvfins already > and 3 of them are tested already
    in conditions > you can not duplicate in your loony proa >
    having .... a back ward development hvf to the 1960 ......
    where as a modern hvf should be a 5/8 circular fin >
    or a modified version as the fin shown on the 31'
    just look at the very first file on http://proatech.org
    and see > that even with such an extreme wind gradient from this storm
    near the surface > rising the center of the sail force extremly upwards >
    making the fin go all the way down > it is working all the way !
    where as loony sets his aoa .... in this condition > to the least resistance
    not the max functioning !

    > or look at mike stolles work > and you are then telling me >
    what boat will survive such conditions >
    http://www.studiobunker.de/vector_foil_proa_test4.htm

    > and your mr giles > not even his drawing can be possible working !
    such as any storm ...

    and the work of non functioning projects > I dont want to even see ....
    this world is already such a ....

    > and the fin copied by alexander from my work > cant be working >
    as the fin tried by robert biegler has not been working ?
    because of just this .... my own calculation !
    saying > that the hinge has to be at the float of the proa > and having a float
    and only one ......

    so we all know now > who here is prepetrating .... fantasy
    and not appreciating the work of .... those doing things right !

    > and the history of the yacht magazin .... is right here > just ...type in >
    " yacht zeitschrift geschichte " in google > deutschland > and you will find it all in wiki !
    I never ... ever insult any one > period > but a lot of people are insulting myself
    and if I try to set things right > and show them reality >
    they ....... show their true face !
    becoming ..... the masses of .....

    and ..... if you need prove of any thing I am saying > thats your problem
    not mine .....

    I am providing all this information >
    and any can check them out > through their own reasoning
    and ... can only find them to be true ......

    since I have been at this ..... for 1/2 a century
    and any thing not right > has been long ago > discarded !

    regards the team at proagenesis

    .
     
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