Higher power parallel hybrid applications?

Discussion in 'Hybrid' started by Bosun, Nov 25, 2009.

  1. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    It HAS been taken very serious by the industry! And it is all developed already. There are boats out there in the water, proving the technique is´nt mature yet. (in terms of efficiency)
    And I must contradict you, sorry, there are only "low power" systems available for cars! The higher power demand on road applications still has to be provided by IC engines. The El. part can be a booster though, or regenerate power to some extend.
    But road applications have nothing in common with boats. On road power demand in general is a low one!

    The batteries and battery management are still (and will remain for long) a problem unsolved.
    For low power consuming boaties there is a niche, but even a long range trawler (where weight is´nt a major concern) cannot be driven EFFICIENTLY by hybrid propulsion.
    In the end it all boils down to the question of power storage at high density. And a reliable, available, dense and cheap (relatively) storage is Diesel fuel.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  2. Joakim
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    Joakim Senior Member

    Please tell us what would be the benefits of a high power hybrid system in semi-planing or heavy planing boats?

    I really can't think of any even if the batteries would be very cheap. If we someday have batteries with energy density even in the same order of magnitude as with fuel, it would be a different story. Currently the energy density of diesel is about 100x the energy density of batteries. Thus for the same range you need 100x more weight (and space).

    This is the reason for the difference. For a car this high power hybrid uses high power only for a few seconds during acceleration and then drops to low power at constant speed. For a boat it must be able to produce high power for a long time.
     
  3. kistinie
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    kistinie Hybrid corsair

    The remaining problem is electric energy storage.

    Tested since at least 10 years Carbon nano tube (CNT) solutions that goes from springs to torrus shows weight to energy ratio At least 10 times better than fuels and best lithium batteries.
    In the case of sperconductor torrus made of CNT, in 2006 needed temp was -90°C, -50°C will be reached soon opening the door to Pelletier effect cooling.
    I guess it is needless to explain what means to have a light inexpensive superconductor torrus.
    http://www.physorg.com/news177865593.html
    http://www.solarfeeds.com/ecofriend...ould-herald-a-new-era-of-energy-storage-.html
    This good news being said, it should also be kept in mind that all nanotubes are very toxic because of their size, they enter cells.

    Till this moment or another major technical revolution, motor boats will remains in the grey ages, only light sailing boats are getting a wide benefit of hybrid solutions to the condition...they sail :)
     
  4. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    The point is that it has been taken very seriously and the technology is not there to make it worthwhile in any way - some things do not scale up and sometimes even a scale down is also a waste - so why are you persisting in banging your head?

    If you don't believe, make it, but be prepared for the costs and losses... With incredible luck you may get something to partially work, but the expense will be significant...
     
  5. Guest625101138

    Guest625101138 Previous Member

    Boson
    Hybrid systems have growing use in motors cars. As you have noted there are significant benefits in stop start traffic where all the energy put into accelerating can mostly be recovered when braking. The energy to overcome rolling friction and air drag is almost negligible compared to what goes into accelerating. The more you accelerate and brake the greater the benefit of a hybrid with regenerative braking.

    On the open highway hybrid cars are at a disadvantage because they have to carry more weight. Cars like the Prius have beaten this fundamental by using low rolling drag tyres and good wind beating shape. However I know of a honda civic with a 1m tail extension and low drag tyres that gets almost 100mpg on the highway. At normal highway speeds cars use maybe 20% of installed power.

    Most pleasure boats do very little starting and stopping - there are no traffic lights on the water. They typically cruise at 60 to 80% of installed power and the vast majority of their energy is overcoming water drag. Adding weight to the boat adds water drag. So a hybrid system has no opportunity for advantage from regeneration and a distinct disadvantage from extra weight.

    You will find diesel/electric drives on large vessels because the large electrical system is competitive with a mechanical transmission with regard weight and offers more flexibility in where heavy components are located as well the benefit of operating the engine in the most economic regime at different boat speeds.

    The only situation where a small hybrid system could be used for good purpose is if you operate part of the time where running an ICE is prohibited.

    If you are looking for a more planet friendly boats that do not rely on wind then you need to look at hull forms, solar power and/or human power. All offer some really interesting opportunities for creative minds.

    I have recently seen two families going on a boating holiday with a kayak for every person. There are quite a few couples who head off for a weekend in a kayak.

    My wife enjoyed a day in one of these little Nauticraft as much as any power boat she has ever been in:
    http://www.nauticraft.com/downloads/encore.pdf

    If you think human power undignified or just hard work then this clip shows what can be done with less than 1HP and clever design:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh_RhkejWLw
    This is at the far end of the spectrum but shows what can be done with modern technology and some creativity.

    Rick W
     

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  6. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    The reason DE is in heavy equipment,trains and the like is the otherwise near impossibilty of transmitting massive power and torque to the wheels-not to get better mileage.
    As well as using the system for braking.

    I looked into this 4 years ago and even if their fuel consumption gains were correct ( which I doubt) I'd need to circumnavigate twice to break even.

    Siemens ( I think) had the systems installed in a charter fleet,and the last I heard they were all removed.

    Nordhavn offered a system,sold a few but then cancelled the DE installations.

    Just get a CPP.
     
  7. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Correct! Get a CPP...
     
  8. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

  9. Bosun
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    Bosun Navigare Necesse Est

    Thank you Gentlemen for your valuable comments,

    I have gotten what I asked for. Always understood that boating ISN'T one of the environmentally friendliest hobbies, as Richard states neither motor boating nor sailing.

    It always requires more or less big sum of investment and if counting multiplicative effects of boating industry and usage, it really can not be too friendly for our very vulnerable earth. Of course one could continue endlessly this discussion but it will be mainly change of etchical and moral opinions.

    One thing is good that we have woken to realize the status of nature and started considering our CO2-tracks for next generations.

    Technology is always there and hopefully with it's development will decrease CO2-tracks in future.

    But there is still factor that nobody can deny - the mental out-put of boating for human being's mind. Always looking for better ways and more time to spend on water - whether if it was ecologically correct or not.

    Wish you all nice time waiting of Santa! On these latitudes also waiting for next boating season.

    Bosun.
     
  10. kistinie
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    kistinie Hybrid corsair

    Yes, thanks Richard for your expertise, thanks bosum for helping us understand, all this more or less the same, sails, electric regen, 20 Gallons an hour ICE,oil, water.


    Thanks for recalling the CO² fraud, i never noticed this scam before.

    Please look at this !

    31,486 American scientists have signed this petition,
    including 9,029 with PhDs

    http://www.petitionproject.org/
     
  11. kerosene
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    kerosene Senior Member

    price weight benefit ratio is not there. On road it makes sense as you can charge from barking and the extra power need is very temporary.

    toyota prius battery pack is 2kwh - you can pull 2.6hp for 1 hour or 26 hp for 6 minutes - that is not much in boating. And that is high end stuff for big markets.

    led acid is still only cheaper battery solution but still far from cheap. And very heavy - the fancier stuff like LiFePO need advanced management systems and the prices are very high.
     
  12. kistinie
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    kistinie Hybrid corsair

  13. kerosene
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    kerosene Senior Member

    you are back with your reasonable equations
    all my friends seem to get 50mpg from their priuses...
    and my comment was about storage capacity - even if sailing regen worked well it would have the storage issue mentioned you can get your 20hp for 6min and then regen for an hour - boating i snot stop and go traffic
     
  14. kistinie
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    kistinie Hybrid corsair


    Expensive ...Could be at least 2 times less as when pulsed charged, capacity in maintained two to three times more cycles of use.


    6 minutes ?

    5Kw is giving 30 N/m torque, more than needed to move full speed a light multihull, even 2 Kw in a an harbour is too much
    100Amp/48V, discharged 50%, gives 1 hour @ 50 amp
    So unless you drag-race in the marina i do not understand in practice your 6 minutes... maybe a 666 try ? :))

    High capacity storage solution have never been so close to the market with CNT. High power is for tomorrow :) , if i trust the strange data cleaning from servers of many documents tagged "CNT + energy + storage" :))
    Feeding this storage will be possible from, land, sun,wind, boat speed for sailing boats
    Energy is extracted by conventional electricity generation and from the vacuum.

    The CO² swindle will help our GOV to get free from the oil lobbies that delayed alternative technologies to come to markets.

    Till these few years to wait for superconductors and others solar painting... lead batteries are here + DC Permanent Magnet motors, solutions ON LIGHT SAILING BOAT (not on floating hammer), give 1 to 8 hours range, more than needed to go back to your mooring or marina.

    For more hours motoring like going up a river or no wind days, a light genset is perfect to enjoy the smell and noise of the past.
    Before choosing, think of the service you need, not how to do it.
    Then check
    The market is new for makers...but as well for the users
     

  15. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    For a motor boat todays "ultimate" that is simply off the shelf , no question about weather it will work.

    Smaller engine so it is well loaded at all times.

    CPP and EGT monitoring .

    A stoopid sized engine for a few min of go fast once a month will be helped with a ZF 2 speed tranny.

    The prop can be speed up to properly load the engine at 1100 to 1300rpm, the "sweet spot" on modern 4 stroke diesels with turbos and computers.
    While the boat runs displacement speeds SL 1.15 MAX.

    For a sail boat it id doubtfull that the CPP would ever pay its way.

    The form then would be a modest sized engine that could carry a HEAVY house load.

    Cruise and pump 200A+ into the house bank, and run a mechanical refrigeration at the same time.

    In really heavy weather the house loads would be cut to power to windward , as modern "sailors" seem to prefer.

    FF
     
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