High Performance MPX Foil/Self-righting Trimaran-The Test Model

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Dec 28, 2010.

  1. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    WOLF daughter of fire arrow
    Latest Update 9/18/18
    ==================
    WOLF specs(tentative) :
    LOA 14.8'
    Max Beam 16'
    CL ama hull to CL ama hull-14'
    Target weight 175-190lb
    SA-(mast length 24' all carbon wing mast)

    --upwind: 167 sq.ft
    --downwind: 267 sq.ft
    --max pressure before depowering/reefing: 1.79lb/sq.ft
    * NOTE-see post 2763- for max pressure comparison with an F18.
    RM-max righting moment=4460ft.lb..


    ------------------------------------------------
    Advantages:


    1-Singlehander-will not have the capability of taking two people for a ride with high performance upwind. Downwind will foil with a crew weight up to around 340lb in 6.5-7.5 knots of wind. Excellent upwind performance with 220lb crew.
    2- Will foil in 5 knots of wind with 220lb crew .
    3-Carbon rotating wing mast, carbon cross arms and carbon foils.
    4-Retractable foils(from cockpit). Mainfoil retracts flush with bottom and tips are designed to not dig into sand. Rudder foil retracts above bottom. Ama foils retract above waterline when boat is level.
    5-Extremely comfortable sliding seat on each side. Allows crew to move 1.75' outboard very quickly.
    6-Uses the Fire Arrow Foil System(like Fire Arrow, Gitana 17, Banque Pop, Macif and Maserati)-- the same as the original system first used on the Test Model- except the larger boats use two rudder t-foils on each tack. WOLF has two UptiP ama foils-one used at a time-and one wand controlled mainfoil for very early takeoff and capable of substantial downforce- all working with a single rudder T-foil. Downforce can be virtually instantaneous adding RM in response to gusts.
    7-Foiling throughout the wind range -including very light air-the essence of 3D SAILING!
    8- Assy Spin/Screecher retracted under the front deck.
    9- Boat folds from max beam to trailerable width in about 4 minutes. No waterstays.
    10-Mid (wish)boom mainsheet so sheet is always in forward hand and extention tiller always in aft hand.

    11-Quickly self-draining cockpit-large scuppers with backflow flap.

    12- Planing ama hulls designed for incidental contact with water at speed and for inadvertent contact at slow speed.
    Adjustable angle of incidence of planing surface of each ama simultaneously. Angle of incidence of ama foil has to be changed when this is done. Planing surface starts at +4 degrees.
    Uses Two-Stage Amas-see pictures below. They consist of a planing ama hull(Stage One) coupled to a "curved piece"(Stage Two) that provides extra buoyancy in the event of a knockdown. Curved piece
    facilitates high dihedral crossarms which keep the crossarms clear of the water.
    13-Planing main hull.
    14- Aerodynamic surfaces added to forward and aft crossarms. Adjustable flaps added on rear cross each side. Jib foot and forward part of main foot to be sealed to deck.

    -------

    ==================
    ---
    Memorable quote from JG Baker, Designer and Builder of the Monitor foiler in the 1950's:
    " The main need is to lower the wind velocities required for flying in order to increase the opportunities for high speed travel"

    ================
    --- Fire Arrow Foil System-first of its kind on any trimaran. Elements developed first by Fire Arrow include:
    1) the first trimaran in history to use uptip ama foils,
    2) the first trimaran in history to use a single wand controlled main foil capable of downforce,
    3) the first trimaran in history to use Two Stage Amas.(see below for Two-Stage Ama pictures)



    MPX-Two Stage Ama.JPG

    MPX-two stage ama 2.JPG

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  2. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ======================
    Incredibly silly,uninformed, comments!
    See post 2784 for an intro to WOLFMAN who stands a mighty 5'4'' tall at the same 1.5"=1' scale of the boat and is used to help people to understand the sizes of objects in a picture. A first class little fella whose work is really helpful.....

    WOLF 14 concept-wolfman 9-1-18 010.JPG

    WOLF 14 concept-wolfman 9-1-18 013.JPG
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
  3. Gary Baigent
    Joined: Jul 2005
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Actually well informed. How long have you been dicking around with the many forms of the same model with laughable super macho names like Wolf and Fire Arrow .... a decade, maybe a decade and a half - and still no boat upon which to sit your large posterior?
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
    Munter and redreuben like this.
  4. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Fire Arrow Foil System---- One of the main reasons the Test Model worked so well and why WOLF will be so easy to fly is that the altitude of the main hull(and therefore the angle of heel of the whole boat) is controlled automatically by the dual surface sensors(wands) that automatically adjust the main foil flap to maintain the designed and set flight altitude. The trailing rudder t-foil works automatically as does the leeward ama UptiP foil.
    In other words, the foil system on the Test Model and on the fullsize WOLF works automatically even during a tack or gybe making this system extremely simple and easy to use.

    Wand Altitude Control:
    You can see the windward wand in this shot and also the wake made by the leeward wand: MPX Fire Arrow-windward wand clear 7-24-14 013 - Copy - Copy (3).JPG
    Fire Arrow Dual Wand System:
    Wand System Adjustments.jpg

    A- attachment point of daggerboard,
    B- attachment point of pushrod from mainfoil flap,
    C- attachment point of spring that holds wand "against" the water,
    D- axle for dual wand rotation.

     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  5. redreuben
    Joined: Jan 2009
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    Location: Beaconsfield Western Australia

    redreuben redreuben

    You've got to be kidding !
    You sailed it what, twice ?
    It only has the illusion of working well because you edit selected stills from the leap frogs and keep posting them infinitum !
    There are plenty of videos on here of models screaming around on foils up and down wind and around marks smooth fast and stable.
    But none of them are yours.
     
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  6. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    *That is an outright lie-proving that you have no idea what you are talking about!
    ===================
    There was no editing other than shortening the video. The leapfrogs you refer to occurred on the second day of testing(6/26/14) and were due to wand and rudder problems- corrected by the last test on 7/24/14.
    The final testing occurred in a 5 mph wind in big waves left over from the previous 24 hrs. and the new technology worked 100% perfectly-still had minor rc problems with the rudder. It is a revolutionary foil system with two altitude control systems that work simultaneously. It was the first time that any trimaran had foiled using a wand controlled foil(capable of developing downforce) on the daggerboard in combination with an UptiP foil on the lee ama and a rudder t-foil on the main hull. First time any tri sailed or flew using Two Stage planing amas. Most especially the technology unique to this boat worked perfectly.
    On top of my testing, Maserati and Gitana 17 have sailed thousands of ocean miles using a virtually identical system which has also been adopted by Banque Pop and Macif.
    The pictures of the boat foiling you have seen were taken on three separate runs on the 24th-they are NOT EDITED (other than reducing picture size for this forum). They are NOT taken from any video-shot entirely separately. Had the technical aspects of the boat not worked you would NEVER have seen these pictures!!!

    MPX Fire Arrow-First Full Flying Foiling on video-7-24-14 012 (3) - Copy.JPG MPX Fire Arrow-First Full Flying Foiling on video-7-24-14 013 - Copy.JPG MPX_Fire Arrow-3D SAILING-7-24-14 009 (2).JPG MPX_Foiling--_Foil_Assist-Flying_Main_hull_Over_Powered_009.JPG MPX Fire Arrow.jpg

    Gitana 17 using a foil system virtually identical to the Fire Arrow Foil System*:
    *using two rudder t-foils in the water and no Two Stage ama plus one UptiP ama foil each side and a manually controlled main foil designed to develop downforce.

    Gitana Foiling!.jpg
    =================================
    --- Fire Arrow Foil System-first of its kind on any trimaran. Elements developed first by Fire Arrow include:
    1) the first trimaran in history to use UptiP ama foils,
    2) the first trimaran in history to use a single wand controlled main foil capable of downforce,
    3) the first trimaran in history to use Two Stage Amas.(see post 2791 for Two-Stage Ama pictures)
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
  7. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

    Pmsl, Oh look, the same stills,
    Again.
     
  8. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    The quote below is from"redreuben" after the successful test sailing/foiling of July 24th, 2014. Funny how things change........
    ---------------------
    His previous comment today referenced the testing done on the second day of testing (June 26th, 2014, page 93, post 1393) when there were many problems. Rather than reference the last day of testing when all worked well ,his previous post today references a test almost one month earlier!! He's not the only one who has done that and it is disingenuous to say the least.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
  9. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

    Yep I did say that, and the you never sailed it again. I’ve offered you lots of encouragement as have others, why don’t you quote the post where I suggested a serious development process ? No ? All too hard. Years of reposting the same stuff, the same stills the same first time in the known universe drivel. You could have done amazing stuff and actually proved the concept. The few sails you did proved you had a starting point
    But that’s it, then you bailed and it’s been 4 years of repeats ever since.
    Why do you think 99% of the posts are yours ? No one cares anymore, your thread is just that pile of crap in the corner everyone steps around.
     
  10. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready


    Besides the fact that the Fire Arrow Foil System worked technically perfectly on July 24th, 2014, and besides my personal disasters, the Fire Arrow Foil System has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt on Maserati, Gitana 17 , Macif and Banque Pop. Which is why all my effort has been directed toward designing and developing a small fullsize trimaran using the Fire Arrow Foil System(WOLF). Thats all that matters now since the system was proved on July 24th 2014 and many times since on the boats I just mentioned.
    PS-better clean your shoes they must be a real mess...........
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
  11. David Cooper
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    David Cooper Senior Member

    The boat worked well enough to justify building a full-size prototype, but it takes money to build one, and how do you raise the funds for that if the people who might help don't know about your project? Some day, Doug might reach the right person who has money to burn. He may also have have put off most of the people who might considered helping because of his bombardment of posts, but that's highly doubtful - the reality is that you don't get funding either way unless you're very lucky, so he really has nothing to lose. The boats that actually get built are the ones that are designed by people who have enough money to throw at them.

    If I had money to burn, I'd consider putting it into Wolf for two reasons - it has the potential to be a great boat for disabled sailors at Paralympic level, but I also see past the irritating side of Doug to the brilliant enthusiast who also inspires people. I can't help liking him, and all the hostility that he generates is way over the top, so I'd like to see this thing built just for the sake of Doug's happiness. I don't have the money to help at the moment, but it's not impossible that I'll have it some day (though it's difficult to make progress towards my various goals when I keep being floored by Crohn's disease). I have had an idea though about a possible way to make my own foiling boat on the cheap, and I wonder if it could provide a way for Doug to do the same.

    I recently heard about someone in Bolivia (folk group Rumillajta's Adrian Villanueva) who is making high quality musical instruments out of paper mache, and they're selling for high prices - he says the stuff's better than wood. It set me thinking, and I found information on this forum about making boats with paper mache. The best way to do it seems to be to use yacht varnish as the glue: no joins to make with wire and tape, no problem with curves, no problem with reinforcing highly stressed areas as you can just bulk them up on the inside in the same way. There are questions about how long such boats will last before the paper starts to rot, but it'll be good for at least a couple of years, and that's all you need for a prototype. It certainly makes building easy, and it's stronger than wood for the same weight. You'll doubtless still end up with an overweight boat compared with carbon, and it may be inferior to plywood, but it can still be the right shape and strength, so you just need a bit more wind to fly (which is no problem for a boat designed for early flight) - you should be able prove the concept for a lot less money this way. All you need's a floating platform of just about the right shape that's strong enough to hold the foils and rig and which does a reasonable job of keeping the drag low enough to take off. There are no moulds to make as you can just build a cardboard frame and then start layering the paper on, taking you straight to the finished boat. No great skill is required and no complex equipment - you can invite friends and neighbours round to help stick layers of paper on, and they can provide the paper too for free - old magazines will do. You'll need to find helpers as there's a lot of work involved with this building method, but the lack of skill required could make it practical, and a lot of people would be interested enough to want to have a go (and maybe to get a ride on the finished product too). They might also be willing donate tins of varnish, keeping substantial parts of the boat down to a cost that even a child could afford to pay. I'm also wondering if it might be possible to make foils out of paper mache, putting some unidirectional carbon in along the underside - if they break under high load, it won't matter as they'd be dirt cheap, but I suspect they only need reasonable stiffness to avoid twisting, high resistance to tension load along the underside, and high resistance to compression elsewhere.

    Anyway, life is short, so you need to take risks and find a way to get on with it even if you can't raise the money to build it the ideal way with the best materials. Try to build an adequate prototype as cheaply as possible and then use it to prove the design unambiguously.
     
  12. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    WOLF daughter of fire arrow-- new pictures with the rig,retracted foils and The Man.
    ----
    David, should the boat get built it will be done with 1/8" okume, thin carbon sheet, foam, carbon cloth and epoxy. Whether I build it myself or have it built I think I can hit the lower side of the target weight seen in the spec sheet below. Even if I have it built, I will build the foils if at all possible at the time-they will be similar to the scale foils in the pictures above except for the ama foils which will be very similar to the Fire Arrow foils in order to move the center of lift outboard to the max. I may even try a new kind of T-foil experimentally.
    Check your PM's.......
    --------------------------------------------------

    WOLF specs:
    LOA 14.8'
    Max Beam 16'
    CL ama hull to CL ama hull-14'
    Target weight 175-190lb
    SA-(mast length 24' all carbon wing mast)

    --upwind: 167 sq.ft
    --downwind: 267 sq.ft
    --max pressure before depowering/reefing: 1.79lb/sq.ft
    * NOTE-see post 2763- for max pressure comparison with an F18.
    RM-max righting moment=4460ft.lb..
    See expanded Spec Sheet in post 2791 above on this page.


    WOLF 14 concept model   9-25-18 002.JPG

    WOLF 14 concept model   9-25-18 005.JPG
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
  13. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    The usual lame excuses after all these years. You have real trouble thinking alternatively? You could build a 6 or 7 meter version of your bath toy if you thought outside the box. But you are too rigid and inflexible - plus being stupidly angry if criticized. Has to be carbon prepreg. For your so called breakthrough project. FFS, bent plywood is cheap, so is foam or strip planked cedar, balsa, paulownia and a number of other very light woods, sheathed in light glass/epoxy. And you end up with a very light boat. Not super light like the highest technology materials but still very light. Frog weighs 140 kgs, all up. Some skills are required and some experience in basic boat building. But you have wasted years/decades with silly little models. Which don't relate to full sized craft. Reality is different. But you continue with your endless fantasy toy postings. One would think it must be very frustrating?
     
  14. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =================
    Thanks for your kind words ,Gary. I know you're just trying to help 'cause you're just that kind of guy. But this is beyond nuts-you really haven't got a clue ,do you?!
    I'm sorry for that-it seems you have missed out on one of the most important design and development tools available to boat designers and inventors. Guys like Dr. Sam Bradfield, Yves Parlier, Alain Thebault , Greg Ketterman, Paul Larsen, Hugh Welbourn, Bill Burns and others-like me, for instance.
    Too bad-your beautiful boats might actually have foiled if you had done some model development work like all the guys I mentioned. A footnote to history......
     

  15. redreuben
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    Location: Beaconsfield Western Australia

    redreuben redreuben

    And that dear reader is Dougs sad pathetic tale in a nutshell, people who have done it, don’t have a clue. Doug Lord knows it all. I mean here is 187 pages of “proof”
    Don’t answer Doug, I don’t care.
     
    OzFred likes this.
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