Herreshoff NY30 fore-sail

Discussion in 'Hydrodynamics and Aerodynamics' started by JerryWo, Nov 7, 2014.

  1. JerryWo
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    JerryWo New Member

    My sailing buddy's wife casually admitted that, as a young girl, she often sailed on a NY30 as her father was co-owner. Even after her fathers early death, she and her mother continued to sail on the boat. My buddy sent me a few links, the most interesting one is here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWJ8TzeQxhc

    Can forum members comment on this boomed fore-sail, which is attached to the aft 2/3 of the fore-sail? Was the Hoyt jib-boom an evolution of this fore-sail?

    Thanks

    Jerry
    M-23 Cutter
    Port Kinsale, VA
     
  2. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    That is a design from an era of cotton sails. That was a way of controlling sail shape. Also, it is possible to have a self tending sail. The downside is having to go forward when the sail is luffing. As a bowman I remember many bruises from setups like that.
     
  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Thanks, for that video! My Dad had a Larchmont "O" boat without the gaff rig. But I grew up sailing the Fish class and learned about gaffs there. Garry Hoyt is brilliant and his jib boom easily could have been inspired by seeing one of these rigs. I produced RC sailboats 20 years ago and had a license from Garry to use the Hoyt jib boom on all the boats. He's a great guy- you could contact him and ask about his inspiration for the jib boom.
    Contact him here: http://www.garryhoyt.com/
     
  4. JerryWo
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    JerryWo New Member

    Thanks Doug. The website does not list an email address, so I will just pen him an old fashioned (snail mail!) letter.

    Many years ago I sent Phil Bolger a letter with a photo of my "Nymph" that I built and got a wonderful letter in return plus another one a few years later when I sent him a political Cartoon from the "Washington Post" that had in it a boat that only Phil could have designed.

    Again, thanks for the suggestion!

    Jerry
     
  5. philSweet
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    philSweet Senior Member

    One thing to notice is the single big jib is yankee-cut. It has a clew well above the boom. If you went without a club on a jib with that much foot, it would have a lot of hook in the bottom 15 percent of the sail, all of which would be interfering with the big main. If the jib was slammed down to the deck, the hook would be lower and not mess with the main as much. So the club on that sail takes the camber out of the aft part of the bottom of the jib, and also lets the jib and leads be designed to set better going down wind. I happen to be a fan of the things. I think they are more versatile than a loose footed jib. The proportions of that one are pretty typical. You can often reef the jibs and then they can be set to self-tack on the same boom. I have retrofitted at least one club jib to every boat I have ever owned.
     
  6. JerryWo
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    JerryWo New Member

    Interesting - my little cutter has a 100% jib with a high clew (Yankee, I guess). See:
    http://msog.org/models/m23new/sailplan_new23.cfm

    The inner stay-sail has a wire luff. I rarely use all 3 sails, preferring to use the stay-sail by itself, with a reefed main, more as storm sail configuration. Comfortable up to 25 knots and OK to just under 30 knots (double reef in main and wet ride!).

    Jib is hanked-on.

    I've pondered making this a self-tending jib, but as she sits, there is a small amount of overlap. She is sheeted outside the shrouds...and I'm just now learning/realizing that the genny cars need to be well aft. Wonder if that 2/3 boom would allow this to be self-tending? You may have guessed that I'm not obssessed with performance, but this little boat scoots right along - down-wind, not so much. I would not mind better down-wind performance.

    comments?

    Jerry

    p.s.

    I notice in the referenced YouTube link, that NY30 tacks at 8:44 and the boom easily stays inside the fore-triangle. Interesting too is the amazing trough between bow & stern at 9:17.
     
  7. philSweet
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    philSweet Senior Member

    With the little scuttle on the foredeck, I think I'd pass on the boom. Otherwise, I'd find something like an old Snipe jib and for $20 you could play around a bit. But that scuttle is going to interfere with things I think.
     
  8. JerryWo
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    JerryWo New Member

    Letter from Garry Hoyt

    So, I sent Garry Hoyt a letter asking if the Hoyt Jib Boom was an evolution of the type of fore-sail found on the NY30. Here's his reply:

    "Thanks for your letter of 7 November and for your interest in the Hoyt Jib Boom. I cannot report any conscious connection with the NY30. My creation of the Hoyt Jib Boom (HJB) started with the realization that the jib needed to be vanged for full efficiency, just as the mainsail does. It still amazes me that many sailors don't see that obvious truth......."

    He then went on to talk about his patent.

    Jerry W
     
  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    CooL!
     

  10. NoEyeDeer
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    NoEyeDeer Senior Member

    Back when I were a lad, I crewed on one of the local Mirror dinghies. The bloke who owned it couldn't afford a spinnaker and the gear for it at the time, but did have a whisker pole. So, I came up with a brainwave. We fitted another attachment for the whisker pole on the foredeck, and used it to control the clew of the jib when reaching.*

    It worked really well. The usual way of sailing Mirrors was with both jib and spinnaker up, which really wasn't that efficient since they tended to interfere with each other on a reach. We found that the properly sheeted jib would often allow us to keep up with the boats flying spinnakers.

    True story, but from many years back so no evidence available. Give it a go yourself and see what happens. :)

    *ETA: This required a bit of messing around with attachment points and sheeting angles to get it right. I have a vague recollection that we might have ended up with two attachment points, and of using the slack sheet as a downhaul/vang. I also recall holding the pole manually and shoving it around a bit sometimes.

    In the interest of clarity I should also point out that the spinnaker-equipped boats would still walk away from us a on square run, where all you need is the biggest possible drag device. However, we could generally hold them from a close reach round to a broad reach.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2014
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