Help with Design Modifications

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by CardboardKing, Mar 16, 2013.

  1. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Sean, you'd be the exception with this opinion. No one has suggested Paul B doesn't have some technical and sailing experience, though not as much has he thinks. This isn't the problem with his posts. The percentage of threads that have had to be split or closed is inordinately high with him, likely more than any other member. Paul B isn't the forum accuracy police and has been found just to have misspoken, over stated, misinterpreted others' comments or to have been in error as anyone else that's posted here. Of course never an apology, he's way to good for that. He's picked intentional fights with everyone, including the forum moderators. It's one thing to point out an issue, short fall or oversight, but this isn't Paul B's SOP, he prefers to make personal digs, insults, cast dispersions, build a mountain out of a petty quibble and make out and out lies, etc., as the owners (and forum members) of the last launch of one of my designs might find, when they log on. They do have video and are the source of the posted photos, that according to Paul B (with your agreement Sean) don't exist. I don't give a damn what his expertise level might be, if he can't conduct himself in a reasonable manner. Abrasive is sometimes tolerable, particularity if a little humor is involved, but intentionally degrading, insulting and tending maliciousness, shouldn't be tolerated.
     
  2. sean9c
    Joined: Jan 2011
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    sean9c Senior Member

    You're entitled to your opinion, as I am and I respect that.

    Regarding experience your designs, videos etc. ,the only thing I agreed with PaulB on is that I had not seen them, not that they didn't exist.

     
  3. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    That's what I thought.

    I found it curious that you objected to the OP's 2nd choice as an unknown design by an unknown designer, then you suggested he look at unknown designs by an unknown designer.

    IIRC the designer of the OP's 2nd choice used to post here on this message board. I seem to recall him posting photos of one or two of his other designs (Mini or Open 30?).
     
  4. alan white
    Joined: Mar 2007
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    alan white Senior Member

    Give us a break, Paul B. If it wasn't so apparent to sean9c before, it sure ought to be now. Going by what you said, only famous designers are to be trusted because only their designs have been accessible to test.
    I suggest people Google Paul Riccelli (PAR) to get an idea how successful his designs are. He's hardly unknown. His designs are featured in Duckworks and Woodenboat at least. In many ways he has deep knowledge of the construction end of design far beyond most famous designers and one would infer from that that his advice has considerably more value than that from a NA who hasn't built and repaired boats for a living.
    Paul B knows this. I don't disparage his boat knowledge except when his people skills get in the way of his accuracy. Then he becomes dismissive, petty, and insulting.
    He can't help himself.
     
  5. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
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    gonzo Senior Member

    The general opinion about Paul B seems to be the same as mine. He insults and makes snide remarks with no regards to facts or the theme of the thread.
     
  6. sean9c
    Joined: Jan 2011
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    sean9c Senior Member

    My thought was, based on the OP's posts is that he is pretty much a novice and would benefit from the hand holding that someone accessible like PAR might be able to provide.
    I did a search for the designers of the Pilgram 590 and couldn't find a working link. I did look at the Pilgram 590 drawings and thought that, if that's all the info available, that it'd be a challenge for someone without experience to build. Especially if the designers are unavailable to provide assistance.

    If anyone else here thinks I'm at all annoyed by PaulB's responses to my posts, I'm not.



     
  7. Petros
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Petros Senior Member

    was not the second choice by the OP that Russian designed boat, there is a forum and a lengthy thread in this forum for this boat I thought.

    Not sure it would be a good design for a low time sailor, but just because it was designed by in Russia does not make it a bad choice.

    What is wrong with it as a first time build?
     
  8. CardboardKing
    Joined: Mar 2013
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    Location: Lancaster, California

    CardboardKing Junior Member

    Heh, heh. :eek: I overlooked or forgot the part in the plans where it says that the spreader is actually attached to the mast. When I wrote my post I was thinking it was just free to slip through the hole in the mast whenever the tension on the wires changed, in which case it would not in any way be capable of resisting mast bend. In fact, it would make it worse because the hole through the mast where it was installed would weaken the mast and make it more likely to bend.

    Now that I realize it is connected to the mast, I see that it is a support member, providing a suspension force on the mast at the two points where the wires connect. A bending force on the mast would tug on the wires, but the spreader holds them in place, preventing the mast from bending. Of course, some force would also be put on the spreader itself, in the same direction as the bending force, but that would also work to keep the three points in the same line, thus providing additional resistance to the bending of the mast.

    Am I making more sense now?

    With regard to boat design, as I stated before my father recently retired from being a mechanical engineer. I was raised in a house where you repaired everything that was broken - you didn't just throw it away and get a new one - and you built everything you wanted that was either A) cheaper to build than to buy, B) not available in exactly the configuration you wanted it, or C) was just a lot of fun to build.

    I came to these forums thinking that building my own boat would actually satisfy all three of those categories. At least, if I wanted a brand new boat, which I do.

    Additionally, I've been reading Sail magazine for over a year, and one of the points of advice that has stuck in my head is that knowing your boat well can save your life. How would you get to know your own boat better than if you built it? If you build your own boat, you should know everything there is to know about it - no one else could know it better.

    And with regard to some comments that the boats I've been looking at are too small for frequent trips to Catalina, I am inclined to ask, What does that mean? What makes a boat "too small" for that trip? Are we talking about waves constantly crashing over the deck? Or is it just a "bumpy ride" kind of thing? Because I can handle a bumpy ride. In fact, I prefer flying in small aircraft as opposed to large because of all the little drops and bumps. It makes the whole experience feel more real. Again, if I wanted a smooth ride over to Catalina, I'd take the ferry.
     
  9. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    What Sail Magazine means when they suggested knowing your boat, isn't how it's built so much as how it handles in different wind strengths and sea state conditions.

    Small craft in deep water can become easily overwhelmed, particularly in the hands of a novice skipper. Boats designed for deep water will have certain design features that make them safer, more manageable and more comfortable. Even if you can live with a slow, rough ride, you might find a cockpit that doesn't drain or doesn't drain fast enough a real risk, of course one you're not aware of yet. You are unaware of the need for an effective bridge deck and many other considerations. Trying to maneuver a boat that's nearly swamped and get it bailed, before the next wave comes aboard, while it wallows around helplessly or nearly so is quite dangerous.

    Most of your concerns will be answered and many more raised, once you develop some sailing experience. Other than a well thought out SOR, this is your biggest need right now. Currently you have no idea what you need, what you desire, nor what constitutes an off shore boat, which makes a decision about a set of plans or a used boat exceedingly difficult. Sailing experience is what will focus your needs and desires in a boat, nothing short of it will do. With each bit of experience, you'll modify your needs list, scratching some things off, while adding others. Get some sea time and see what you like and don't, so formulation of a reasonable SOR is possible.
     
  10. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    Your reading comprehension isn't very good. I specifically said the OP's 2nd choice should be fit for his intended use. But, as usual, you want to believe what you want to believe, not what is actually written.


    I heartily agree. A google search can provide photos and videos of boats sailing, or not. It could provide independent reviews of boats that actually exist, or not.


    You need a reality check. I have to think you didn't come by this opinion on your own, but via claims made? So who are these "famous designers" who don't have his knowledge of construction? Have yoiu ever spoken to any of them to determine if the claims made are accurate?


    Feel free to explain where I have been inaccurate? Just because you and your man-crush don't like being caught out in "embellishments" doesn't change facts.
     
  11. Boat Design Net Moderator
    Joined: Feb 2010
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    Boat Design Net Moderator Moderator

    Let's please try and keep the forums here polite to other members. Some care in choice of words would go a long way in making a thread more productive. If someone wants to insult someone, please take it to some other site. Thank you.
     
  12. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    I have sailed to Catalina many times on a Hobie 16, so I don't think your choices are "too small". I can't count the time I've spent over there on a Catalina 22. I've seen smaller boats on the stringline in Isthmus many times. People sail Potters over, Vagabond 17s, etc. But you should have a good skill set and you should pick a good weather window.

    Sailing a sub-20 foot monohull to Isthums is going to be an all day, upwind slog from LB. There can be big swells out in the channel, and if it ges windy you are going to get pretty wet. You're probably not going to want to do this until you are pretty proficient with your boat. From the sound of your posts that would probably take more than a year after you start actually sailing.

    You might want to enroll in some sailing classes.
     
  13. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    Of course you're not. That's because you have the background to share knowledge without the need to embellish things. You are confident in your knowledge and can defend your positions appropriately.

    If we disagree about something there will be facts involved. We won't be arguing because you made something up out of thin air to try to impress others.
     
  14. sean9c
    Joined: Jan 2011
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    sean9c Senior Member

    I was actually thinking the same thing today. Always seemed like the guys in the little boats were having a blast. Get to tie up to the stringline or get the moorings in the corners or closest to the beach.
    Also wondered about the West Wight Potter 19, knew a couple of guys that had them, years ago. They'd go out in anything and just loved the things. They've certainly sailed just about everywhere. I wonder if you can get the design and home build one? Though a boat like that Pilgram is certainly a more modern design and could be a better boat.
    It does all come down to your level of experience.

     

  15. Petros
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Petros Senior Member

    Cardboardking,

    Do not let the naysayers here change your mind, but there is somethings you of course still need to learn. Many have sailed to Catalina in West Wright Potters in the 15 to 19 ft size, I know of some that have even done it on a sailboard (though I would not advise it). I have sailed there several times, and flown there in a light plane, when I used to live not far from Catalina, so I am familiar with the crossing. There have been a few brave souls that have sailed to Hawaii from California in a 16 ft open boat, but I would not advise it. Lin and Larry Pardee have sailed all over the world several times in their homebuilt motorless 24 ft all wood Serafin sailboat, and later their 27 ft Talasin sailboat. But these were specifically designed as deep water micro cruisers, they are very sturdy and heavy boats for their size, and not inexpensive to build. You can read the many books written about these kinds of adventures, making open ocean crossings is something that can be done on smaller boats. You just need to have learned the necessary skills and plan ahead, check weather and current conditions, and have a sturdy and properly equipped boat etc.

    The most important reason to build your own boat is because you like building. It is a false economy to think it is cheaper to build rather than buy an existing used boat. there are lots and lots of very seaworthy used boats on the market right now, for even less money you can buy a decent fixer for next to nothing. I have even been offered whole boats for free if I was willing to take over the maintenance (mostly in the 26 to 29 ft size, but I was also offered a perfectly seaworthy 42' all wood ketch, the guy was living on it but was tired of doing the maintenance). But often you can find a recently refurbished trailorable micro-cruiser sailboat (under 30') with a lot of new equipment for less than it would cost you to do it yourself. The owner may have to sell because of divorce, failing health, moving out of state, etc. There are deals out there, even in Lancaster (but being willing to travel several hundred miles to get a bargain means you will have more options).

    I am telling you this as someone that has built some 18 or 19 small boats, many of them sailboats. I have turned down all the offers of free boats (so far), only because I did not have a place, nor the time, nor the money to get them seaworthy. that may change in the near future, but it is just not for me right now.

    I have saved a lot of money building the many kayaks and sailing dingys I have built, I used almost all salvaged materials that I have scrounged from building sites, second hand stores, etc., but that was not why I built them. I enjoy the creative process, and I like experimenting with different ideas on hull shape and construction methods. Some turn out to be mistakes, and I burn them or dismantle them for use on another project. I enjoy the creative process and actually building something with my own hands. I also built my home, and have rebuilt all of our family cars, because I also enjoy that activity, and it does save a lot of money on the household budget. But if you include the time I spent on these boats, even at minimum wage, it would have be far cheaper and faster just to buy one, and it would have put me on the water sooner. But I got to create something with my own hands, and got to try out some of my ideas for relatively little money (a typical kayak or dingy costs less than $100 to build if I can salvage most of the materials).

    There is tremendous satisfaction coming from building something yourself, particularly something fun like a sailboat. But do not fool yourself into thinking you are saving money. If you intend to build a boat suitable for sailing in coastal waters, there is a certain amount of equipment and important supplies you will need to put into it no matter the size. If you get creative with your sources of equipment, you can do it for very little money (like buying a junk sailboat with a bad hull just to get the rigging, trailer, etc).

    So you can accomplish what you want, just take it one step at a time. Read the books by the Pardees and others, build your self a sailing dingy, maybe more than one, find a local club and volunteer to crew on other people's sailboats for the club races. there will be yacht clubs in Ventura, Santa Monica and South Bay, San Pedro, Long Beach, etc. that are only 1.5-2 hours drive from you. There will be boat owners are needing a slave/deck hand to race their boats in the local club races. The best way to lean sailing is on other people's boats! Check the club's web site and email the commodore and say you are looking to crew on someone's boat in the up coming races, they will refer you to some of his members. Just be honest about your skills, do not be boastful, keep opinions to yourself (unless asked), and do what you are told, and be ready to be yelled at (this is normal in a race, so expect it). Think of it as you are their slave for a few hours on the weekends, in exchange you will get some great experience at their expense. Remember to stroke the owner's ego, the people with enough money to sail every weekend on a large costly yacht are usually very successful and are used to having people around them jump to their demands.

    Once you have spent some time both in your dingys and on other people's larger sailboats, than you will have a better idea about what you like and do not like about different sailboats. And keep an eye out for either boats you will scratch build from plans, or buy used and fix up. Making a decent buy on a good used boat that needs little or nothing, will get you on the water faster, but do not rush into it or you may regret the time and money you spend on something that does not suit your needs.

    Good luck.
     
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