Sad day at Lowe's

Not that Lowe's is a mecca of boatbuilding supplies. Their select pine is no longer douglas fir. It is now sugar pine. While the boards were flat sawn, it was fir none the less and I was able to make the spars and framing for my 16' sailboat with it. I was able to sort though the stacks and select the boards with the greatest number of growth rings and the "most vertical" grain. My mast is 20' in length and has held up wonderfully.

The change actually happened a few months ago, but I still lament the loss of a locally available medium weight strong wood. Their longer (12' and up) dimensioned lumber is still yellow pine and long, staight grained, high ring count boards can usually be found with minimal effort. But, alas, too heavy for spars.

 

Gee, you've got me excited about going to Lowes for yellow pine. I can't believe they sell long and wide untreated planks made from yellow pine.
Fir has always been available (if expensively) as decking in 1 x 4s and 6s. I lengthened my mast last year with a fir 4 x 4 from Home depot. The grain match was so good I was shocked.
I can get most anything here in Maine, so your problem is really due to there being no niche dealerss in your area. I hear that alot.

Alan

 

Alan,

Yup, I start drooling sometimes when I go in. I've purchased 16' 2X10's with no knots and decent grain count and straightness. The 2X12's start getting into the heartwood so tend not to look at those.

Here in the heartland wood selection can be limited.

 

This is likely a temporary condition since they typically buy from local suppliers to get the best price. Their normal supplier of fir was either out, or had raised the price. With such a large buyer as Lowes, the supplier will likely lower their price soon (especially since home construction has slowed down so much), and it will turn up again at your local store sooner or later.

Where are you located? I am in Washington state and the local Lowes almost always has fir. Occasionally they will even get a sling of 2x4 or 2x6 made of sitka spruce from mills on the Olympic Peninsula, typically for only $2.99 each. Whenever I see that I will go through the stack and buy all of the better ones. Unfortunately this does not happen very often.

 

Alan is correct, Lowe's still sells 1x6 decking material (bull nosed and tongue and groove) that is pretty good looking Douglas fur.

Yep, they sell fairly nice SYP, but it's only reasonably clear and straight in the larger 2 by dimensions (2x8's and up).

Greg, if you want some nice spar stock from Lowe's, then use their "economy studs" which is usually white pine. They come in 92" lengths only, but it usually straight and clear (if you look) and inexpensive. White pine is a great small boat spar material, rivaling Sitka spruce. It's also very light in color with a soft grain line that looks fine, brightly finished.

 

Hi, Paul,

By spars, I'm talking masts, too. How big are you talking?

I've got a couple of 25' masts to build on my next project. I wouldn't think that white pine would stand up to the application.

I've been hesitant to consider white pine as a boat material. It's light for sure, but questionable in regard to rot resistance. As a spar, I can see it's application. I've never considered it as a stong wood though.

I'll have to look for that decking material though.

 

White pine isn't as strong as doug fir, but it isn't weak either. Pine usually has knots too, while fir is sold clear.
Clear pine, with a lotta growth rings, would be my choice for a pine mast. Size a 3" fir mast to 3 1/4" if using pine. It will equal the fir's weight and strength and have a tiny bit more windage.
A lot of times, prudent selection of wood is more important than species, depending on how the wood is marketed and how good the tree was.

 

Note: Lowes up here sells red oak, for example, for about $7.00 a foot, about two to three times what a hardwood dealer would get.
They also about triple steel prices (as does Home Depot).
Only buy commodity items at Lowes. They are very clever at doing 1000% markups on items not cross-checked to other stores. A rubber washer for a toilet tank, for example, costs fifty cents, while their wholesale cost must be about 2 cents. A brass bolt will nearly bankrupt you. Home Depot does this as well. Their moldings and pine cost almost twice what local lumberyards sell for. 2 x 4s, however, are about the same.

 

A 20' mast with a typical taper, masthead 200 sq.ft. Bermudian rig (jib and main), having a 3" heel and a 2.5" head will weight about 20 pounds in Douglas fur, 15.8 lbs. if Sitka and 15 pounds if the white spruce (I mis-spoke calling it pine earlier) from Lowe's was used, in a birdsmouth build.

Sitka and black spruce are getting so precious any more it's costly. Douglas fur is considerable heavier, though section thickness could be reduced and it's difficult to finish bright. At $2.50 per 2x4 the white spruce is a reasonable substitute for small spars (under 30'). Great strip planking lumber too.

 

That's amazing. I would have never thought that good ol' SPF could be utilized in this manner. You may have just knocked several hundred dollars off of my next project. I may even consider building a new mast for my current boat with that much weight savings aloft.

 

I currently have two different designs of mine, that are using the economy stud, ripped into strips, strip planking method. It's sort of a cross between the Lord method and elements I've incorporated. The larger of the two is 27' on deck (spared length is over 35'), a quite burdened hull shape and the planking costs (lumber alone) will be just a couple of hundred bucks. The spars will be birdsmouth, but require the strength of Douglas fur, considering the area it must carry. Stave thickness is 18% to save weight. The staves will be gotten the same way, from 1"x6" decking material, ripped to dimension. One of the keys to designing home built craft, is the ability of the designer to find methods and materials, that can be found reasonably and inexpensively.

 

This open a whole new world of thought for me. Could a person make panels with white spruce and overlay each side with glass cloth for cross-grain stresses? I'm thinking for bulkhead type panels, could also be used where ply might normally be used as in cockpit seating, etc. Sort of a strip build, but without the internal fastening.

 

Be aware that SPF is not all spruce, it is a category of lumber that could include any of the following: Alpine Fir, Balsam Fir, Black Spruce, Englemann Spruce, Jack Pine, Lodgepole Pine, Red Spruce, and White Spruce.

SPF(south) could include: Balsam fir, Black Spruce, Englemann Spruce, Jack Pine, Lodgepole Pine, Norway (Red) Pine, Red Spruce, Sitka Spruce, and White Spruce.

And just for the record, Hem-Fir includes: California Red Fir, Grand Fir, Noble Fir, Pacific Silver Fir, Western Hemlock, and White Fir.

DF-L includes both Douglas Fir and Western Larch

These are categories of woods since separating species in the field is too difficult, and unreliable after it is milled, so the group whole stands of mixed timber. The only way to know what your are getting is if it labeled with a single species like "Sitka Spruce" or "Western Hemlock", or if you take it to a wood laboratory where they identify it at the cell level.

These come from the publication "National Design Specifications" by the American Forest & Paper Association.

No worries however, for noncritical applications just pick out something clear of defects, with strait grain, and fairly light and it should serve you just fine. Or slightly oversize the spar for extra strength if in doubt.

 

It can be done but when everything is factored in--- the wood, cloth, epoxy, labor and shop space, wouldn't plywood be a lot stronger and simpler?
The real question is whether there are ways to use woods like spruce, fir, and pine to build strong light compound panels. Cedar is great, but more options are needed these days.
I can get air-dried eastern white cedar in town from the man who mills it using a 24" saw on a trailer. But I hear a lot of guys have no choice but to shop at Lowes.
Clear 1 x 6 fir is then your best bet. A bit heavier than other conifers, but if you go a bit thinner, you'll still have the strength, probably ending up halving the increase in weight. I like clear spruce too, which requires a lot of sorting though piles of two-bys. However, kiln-dried spruce should be checked out thoroughly. It should be straight, free of checks, straight-grained, have small or no knots, and I recommend "damping" the wood to relax it, maybe stickering it over damp ground outside with a tarp over it, getting the moisture level up to 12-15%, which could take weeks.
The stuff they sell at Lowes and Depot is probably 6-7% and usually under a lot of internal tension (inside it may be closer to 10% since it hasn't completely aclimated yet. If you rip it on the saw it can bind or open up, giving you two curved pieces.
Such is the nature of kiln-dried wood. Air-dried wood doesn't do this.
Be aware of twist too, which is due to trees grown at the edge of a clearing (the tree naturally twists to follow the sun and any change in moisture causes the twist to increase or decrease).

Alan

 

Without a doubt, plywood makes more sense. I tend to throw out "What ifs" to see what comes back. I was thinking I could create panels that were at least as light as ply and also have aesthetic quality to them.

A panel segment could be combined with a frame and once inside the frame, a radial starburst pattern with triagular stock could be created. I see most loadings in the panel as compressive which would work great in this case. In another instance, I have tabernacle supports that penetrate the deck and instead of carrying them all of the way to a step at the keel, I would scarf them into a bulkhead made from some of that fine southern yellow pine from Lowe's . The planks on this bulkhead would be oriented vertically and angled out at the bottom (inverted "V") with a herringbone juncture down the middle of the panel. I see this radiating mast loads trasversly to the frame and hull, but also to the keel through the use of a more conventional keel step. Outside of the "V", some of Lowe's fine SPF could be used where the loads are already dissapated.

Clearly, a person could use ply and be on there way. I call it my profoundly unfounded aversion to plywood. . Maybe some day I'll get over it.