Help to identify this Piver model

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by damies, Dec 2, 2009.

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Model?

  1. Nugget

    66.7%
  2. Mariner

    33.3%
  3. Other?

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. damies
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    damies Junior Member

    Hi All,

    I would like some help identifying my Tri, what I know about her is she is approximately 24-25' long, built in 1972, but I am not sure if she is a Nugget or a Mariner or something else? the hull lines seem to fit more along with the Nugget (esp the bow) but the cabin seems more like the Mariner. I have made the best (most informative) photo's I have of her available here:

    http://www.dropbox.com/gallery/2924932/1/Tri-Fling?h=e4355e

    I can make more available if needed. I will keep enjoying sailing her regardless.

    Dave.
     
  2. damies
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    damies Junior Member

  3. DarthCluin
    Joined: Mar 2009
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    Location: Florida

    DarthCluin Senior Member

    I saw this boat for sale earlier this year, and it was advertised as a Nugget.
    The Mariner has a spoon bow, and the length waterline to beam waterline ratio is about 1:7.8. The primary hull of the Mariner is 25 feet from the tip of the bow to bottom of the transom (rudder not included). The overall beam is 15'. The amas on the Mariner have chines.
    The Nugget has a clipper bow, and the length waterline to beam waterline ratio is about 1:10. The primary hull of the Nugget is 23'-8" (rudder not included). The overall beam is 14'. The amas on the early Nuggets were diamond shaped in cross section, but later Arthur introduced amas that were triangular in section, though they still did not have chines.
    The builder of this boat used iakos similar to the original Nimble, and lengthened the cabin to accommodate berths on the wings and a small galley behind them. I admired the accommodations on this Nugget, but I wondered how they affected the performance.
    The Mariner's Museum in Newport News, Virginia, USA has almost all of Arthur Piver's plans, notes, etc. They sell full or reduced size copies of his plans for their reproduction cost, though you will have to pay them a small research fee ($15 per hour). You can find them here:
    http://www.mariner.org/
    Arthur Piver's three books, Trans Atlantic Trimaran, Trans Pacific Trimaran, and Trimaran the Third Book, are available used through Amazon.com. While they are mostly about Nimble, Lodestar, and Bird respectively, the first and second books have some stories about Nuggets.
    The last page of the "Seeking info on Tri-Star or Piver trimaran 23 to 27 Feet" thread on this forum has a nice piece on a Portugese Nugget.
    Irregardless, I think you have a very attractive boat.
     
  4. Gary Baigent
    Joined: Jul 2005
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    Location: auckland nz

    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    It's an altered Nugget and although neatly done, I bet it is overweight. We altered my friend Jacques de Reuck's old Nugget (he paid a grand for it) and did the opposite, stripped everything off and made a neat cabin, fitted daggerboard, decent tip up rudder, open cockpit to transom, routed out the solid beams to make them faired boxes, long tiller arms so that you steer from the floats - plus rotating mast and new Doyle sails with square topped main. Stripping a Piver produces a light boat and can totally transform the boat's original performance.
     
  5. damies
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    damies Junior Member

    Thanks for the kind comments,
    DarthCluin,
    I bought this tri back in April '09 in Brisbane so I was surprised that you had seen it advertised from Florida. Yes it was advertised as a Nugget, but after I bought it I went to the above sites and saw it was not the same, so was not sure, the Previous Owner said he thought it was a Nugget but wasn't sure himself, he didn't know the full history of the boat, all he could tell me was he bought the boat in Newcastle (mid north NSW Coast in OZ) and that the prior owner to him had sailed it up from Sydney. He also said the boat had originally built as for racing.

    I am not sure what you mean by iakos?

    Gary Baigent, I have no idea if it's overweight or not? I have nothing to compare to, this is my first multi, I come from a mono sailing background, the inspiration for change? I liked the idea of sailing level not at 20+deg. and also Morton Bay is renowned for being shallow, as that is where I plan on sailing the shallow draft was attractive.

    I can tell you the aka's I believe they are called (the connection from the main hull to the ama's) are hollow, the forward ones have enough space to port and starbord for me to stow 2 life jackets each, the Aft ones also have convenient little stowage area's usefull for things you want to keep locked in the cabin when the boat is moored but need when sailing (winch handles etc)

    I can post more photo's if anyone wants.

    Dave.
     
  6. Gary Baigent
    Joined: Jul 2005
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Dave, I was a little hasty suggesting your Nugget is overweight (just basing it on the larger cabin) - on checking your photographs, the boat does not sit low in the water - and where normally there is a solid plywood wing deck, you have netting; has to be a gain, meaning less weight there. Also, as you say, the akas are box beams, whereas Jacques were solid wood, again another reduction in weight. Another plus are your float daggers - your boat should go well to windward (usually a Piver problem because of tiny float fins) and be perfect for where you live.
     
  7. DarthCluin
    Joined: Mar 2009
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    Location: Florida

    DarthCluin Senior Member

    Iako, aka same thing, different islands. In Hawaii the primary hull is a wa'a, the secondary hulls are amas, and the crossbeams are iakos.
    With the internet everything available for sale online can be found anywhere. You just have to Google. I looked at it and said to myself, nice boat but its on the opposite side of the planet.
    The original Nugget was basically a day sailer. It tipped the scale around 800 pounds unloaded, and had a load capacity of 600 pounds. Arthur Piver believed all three hulls should be in the water at rest. This is a guess, I haven't done calcs, but the triangular section amas look bigger than the original diamond shaped ones, and that should have increased the boat's displacement.
    The original Nimble had plywood box beam iakos with lightweight streamlining on the leading edge of the forward iako. These would be both stronger and lighter than the solid beams.
     

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  8. catsketcher
    Joined: Mar 2006
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    Location: Australia

    catsketcher Senior Member

    Gday Dave

    I looked over your boat in the late 80s early 90s. I had owned a Nugget before I traded up to a Twiggy and on my first Twiggy trip to Port Stephens I saw your Nugget moored in Tillighery Creek. I met the owner and he showed me the photos of the job he had done. He had basically rebuilt the boat and I was impressed by the job. She still looks in good nick.

    I am not sure but I think the cabin may be a later addition. There was a green Nugget that had no cabin at all that disappeared before I saw your boat. I can't remember if the then owner told me if the green nugget became your boat. As to your questions

    Like Gary said it doesn't look like the boat is overweight. She seems nicely on her lines. My advice is to keep her light. I really like the boards in the amas. Maybe if they are tough enough you could put them down when drying out to stop her leaning over so much. It was one of my bugbears with my Nugget that she would lean over so much when I was on the hard - made it hard to sleep.

    There were a few different sorts of Nuggets around. Mine had a straight sectioned keel line - basically three straight sections of 8 foot each. I guess it made her even easier to build but she had flat decks. I lost track of her 15 years ago. There were folding ones too. Ozzie Pivers are usually Nuggets, Nimbles and Lodestars. There are a few others but very few of the later boats - AAs and such.

    cheers

    Phil
     
  9. damies
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    damies Junior Member

    Thanks Guys, this pretty much confirms that it's a modified Nugget.

    Another question, about this design, when sailing how worried should I be about submerging the leward hull? how likely is the risk of pitchpoling? or is the ama more likely to resurface before it would pitchpole?

    I ask after reading this:
    http://www.john-shuttleworth.com/Articles/NESTalk.html

    I gather this design fits into the first type (older tri).

    I have had the leward hulls digging into the waves a few time and been quite nervous about it bus also in a position where I wasn't able to do anything about it. The worst time (~15kts gusting to ~22kts and 1m swell), I was only 200-500 meters away from being sheltered by an island so just hung on, steered over the swell as best I could and hoped for the best. But not knowing how bad is bad, or what these boats are designed to do left me very nervous, I was very happy with how it handled, but would also like some advice on the matter so I can be better prepared next time.


    Phil, can you tell me more about this boat, did it have the same name then? my marine surveyor said that this boat appeared to him to have been build by a professional boat builder not an amature, due to the quality of the build.

    Dave.
     
  10. Gary Baigent
    Joined: Jul 2005
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    If you keep weight and needless junk out of the Piver Nugget and don't store anything in the floats, they are pretty safe boats - mainly because they are not over rigged and therefore can handle some high winds and seas. The Nugget is only 24 feet and if kept light, is a buoyant little platform - but they cannot be overloaded. Heavy means dangerous. Your outboard, for example is too large for that size of trimaran.
    Keep that mainsheet in your lap close to hand because if in doubt, let the mainsheet out.
     
  11. pedcab
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    pedcab Junior Member

    Which is mine :)

    Here are a couple of pictures

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]





    Look at her sailing just yesterday :)



    And here's my blog with lot's more:

    http://www.utrimaran.blogspot.com

    Regards

    Pedro
     
  12. damies
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    damies Junior Member

    Hi Pedro, nice to meet someone with the same boat (even if you are on the other side of the world). I have been to your blog before, I wish I could understand more than just the pictures. I think there are some photos in this thread that weren't on your blog? What model autopilot are you using and are you happy with it? I also see we have a similar bow wave :)
    [​IMG]http://photos-4.dropbox.com/i/l/0fjwvvf-kV2jqX9_wJA20sLnRKCd8I2pbdYwtKsOiy8#8

    Gary, Thanks for the tips, I bought Dr Gavin LeSueur's Multihull Seamanship book at the time I bought my Tri, Read it cover to cover. I only keep very light bulky items in the ama's like fenders and a deck boom/boathook. I am not sure mine is so under rigged, as my headsail seems bigger than the blue one in Pedro's photos and my main is at least as big. I couldn't find any photo's with all the sail up, might get some in the next few weeks. Unfortunately I don't have any netting, I added a photo (with my daughter holding a fishing rod) that shows the solid decks more clearly.

    I have been thinking about putting netting between the bow and the ama's (my daughter has been asking for this) but I am worried that it might increase the risk of pitchpoling, does anyone have any thoughts on this?

    I see the similarities in the hull shapes, but the decks and above are very different, all the photo's of nuggets I have seen have had the solid beams with the folding arrangement, does anyone know of photo's of other nuggets that use a box section cross beams?
     
  13. pedcab
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    pedcab Junior Member

    Hi Damies!

    Good afternoon

    To your questions:

    1- You're right. The blog is written in Portuguese since it serves, mainly, for me and my fellow sailors from the Tejo river (we're from Alhandra, upriver from Lisbon) to trade ideas and experiences. Anyway, I'm leaving you a link to a web album with a bunch of pictures from Fulô (and my father's own self-build Gros-Plan Mini Transat) including some from Fulô's restoration which I think you might find interesting to look at:

    http://picasaweb.google.pt/pedro.mf.cabral/FulEAzul#;

    2- My AP is an ancient Autohelm 1000 + remote, just like this one:
    [​IMG]
    It works perfectly and I've never seen it draw more than 3A while operating.

    3- I don't consider Fulô to be under canvassed for its rig. My mast is a commercial aluminium profile more adequate to be a monohull spar, thus not intended for the loads involved. Neverteless, as it is, I've sailed at up to 12+ odometer knots under full main and jib and about 20 knots of true wind. Pretty decent I guess, for a boat almost 50 yr old.... :) As a future project I'm considering to build a wooden wing-mast and revising the sail plan as I think that, with a proper mast, there's still plenty of margin to play with...

    4-Fulô used to have hollow crossbeams which were later replaced by the previous owner (and builder) for the fear of hidden rot to attack later on. A wise decision, as far as I'm concearned, as the actual laminated spruce beams are not that much heavier and are far more maintenance free than box beams. As another future project I'm also planning (and have allready designed) semi hollow cross beams, which I can describe in more detail and post the 2D and 3D drawings if required.
    In the floats I keep nothing but air. In fact, they are perfectly air tight being fit with nothing but a couple of round dinghy style inspection hatches.

    5-About weight, I try to keep it to a minimum for various reasons:
    5.1- Ease of pulling out of the water up the club slipway. (My 55hp Ford Fiesta clutch doesn´t cope very well with heavyness :D )

    5.2- Well being of the mooring: Fulô stays on a swinging mooring subject to some harsh weather and the heavier the boat the higher the loads in the mooring cleats.

    5.3- Most importantly: Speed. As you certainly know, the defence of trimarans against heavy weather is speed. If they're not allowed to speed up under gusts they will either break or rip something. I keep as rules of thumb for peace of mind to keep Fulô light and with a clean bottom... I cannot tell you for certain how much is Fulô's weight right now but I tell you this: It is built entirely out of epoxied 5mm marine ply put together with fenolic glue and galvanized nails (except crossmembers, cabin roof and cockpit/deck floors) and the relevant weight on board (except when the need to sleep aboard arises) resumes to a 35Ah battery, a 5hp Tohatsu two stroke outboard, a 12L petrol tank and the rig itself.

    One curiosity. Recently, while antifouling, the need came to lift the boat and move it forward on the berth to paint the resting spots. 8 men were enough to lift Fulô and move it forward so I estimate her weight as being about 400Kg (at 50Kg per "lifter")

    Hope to have been of any further help!

    Best regards!

    Pedro

    PS- If you Google Earth "Alhandra, Portugal" you'll even be able to see Fulô at its mooring. Cool isn't it :)
     
  14. catsketcher
    Joined: Mar 2006
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    catsketcher Senior Member

    Gday Damies

    I am going back to the 80s for this but I stayed away from the nets up front when I had my nugget. The float decks are very wide on the nugget and this is a concern of sorts already. What you can't do is change the shape of the deck (well you could but it would entail foam additions etc) but you really do not want to increase the drag when a tri dips its float bow under the water. I never dipped mine under waves offshore much past the first foot so there is a lot of buoyancy up there but I never really liked the feel of that big flat float deck when offshore. Modern tris have water shedding decks. That said the Nugget has the best float decks for walking of any small tri - swings are roundabouts.

    I am not having a go at the boat - just giving some background. If a float bow goes under you want as little drag as possible so that the boat doesn't trip and pitchpole. The short chop in Moreton Bay could be the type you could stick a bow into.

    So to end my treatise I would urge caution with bow nets. Maybe you could compromise and put 4 strong points on each side (one at the -float bow-main hull bow-float deck intersection - main hull deck intersection and when you get to somewhere you like or when conditions are benign you can clip on a hammocky thing and your daughter can laze in it. You won't want it there and she won't want to use it when conditions are rougher.

    cheers

    Phil
     

  15. DarthCluin
    Joined: Mar 2009
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    Location: Florida

    DarthCluin Senior Member

    I have a copy of the "How to Build 20 Boats" set of Nugget plans (call it Nugget Mk 1), and partial sets of slightly later Nugget plans (call it Nugget Mk 1.5) with the triangular section amas and wing decks, and a cabin the size of Fulo's (but not as sleek). Both sets of plans share the same sail plan. Arthur's catalog shows a Nugget Mk 2 and lists the sail area at 250 sq. ft.
     

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