Help Me Design a Boat for an IOM World Championship Campaign

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by WerpKerp, Oct 23, 2018.

  1. WerpKerp
    Joined: Mar 2018
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    WerpKerp Junior Member

    Hey everyone, I'm back. Recently, a good friend of mine bought an International One Metre sailboat. I had a go, and it was very, very fun. I did a bit of digging, and I discovered that Central Park has a model yacht club, the CPMYC, who sail IOMs. I want to build a boat that will be the fastest on the water. I know I probably won't make it to the International level as a rookie, but since my C420 team doesn't have winter practice, I have some time to build. Here's my design philosophy
    -Winged keel
    -Winged rudder
    -If I can legalize it, foil assist?
    -Thin hull for light air.
     
  2. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  3. WerpKerp
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    WerpKerp Junior Member

    I was thinking about building a scow-shaped hull. The thinking behind this is that with such a beamy hull, I will be able to minimise the keel weight. I am sacrificing some upwind performance, no doubt, but downwind may be aided. Weight will be distributed so the bow is out of the water, much like the way an Optimist sails.
     
  4. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    If it's so easy to design a faster boat, why haven't multiple world champions and pro RC boat designers like Bradley Gibson and Graham Bantock done it? Are they so stupid that you'll be able to design a faster boat than they have been able to create in decades of design? Really?

    In what other areas have you been able to waltz in and instantly become #1 in the world? Have you done it in maths? At university? In sport? If you can't instantly become #1 in other areas why would you reckon you can do it in boat design?

    Why would a thin hull make an RC boat faster in light air? How thin?

    What's the point of minimising keel weight?
     
  5. WerpKerp
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    WerpKerp Junior Member

    CT249, I apologise if I seem like I think I am intellectually superior. As I said, I probably won't even make it to the International level until decades down the road, but I love the idea of being both a yacht's designer and racing skipper. That is why I choose not to buy a proven design, like Frank Russell's Goth or TaylorMade's Rubix. Graham Bantock, Bradley Gibson, Frank Russell, and other professional RC boat designers and racers are unbelievably dedicated and talented, and I will probably never be able to design a boat that will be faster than one of they're designs, but I want to try. And I think I could have worded it better. By "thin", I mean "narrow", as in having a short beam.
     
  6. WerpKerp
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    WerpKerp Junior Member

    It might be teenage naivete, though.
     
  7. WerpKerp
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    WerpKerp Junior Member

    It probably is.
     
  8. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ==============================

    Weren't you a little tough on a person just overflowing with enthusiasm?!! Did you put him or her in "their place"? Are you proud of that?
    One day, many moons ago ,Brad and Graham probably had the same idea and studied, experimented and worked like hell to get where they are today. WK needs to study the class rules and look for classes that might have more design leeway than the IOM does. But by working and studying hard and racing often competitively his or her dream could be realized-I say good luck and give 'em hell!
     
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  9. WerpKerp
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    WerpKerp Junior Member

    So how's the scow concept?
     
  10. Dolfiman
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    Dolfiman Senior Member

    For an RC model I don't know, but you can develop your opinion by reading the thread “From classic bow to scow bow“ , in this sailboat forum
     
  11. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    No, it's not about being tough on anyone - it's about respecting the proven leaders in the field. Although I've only read Bantock's pieces and I haven't seen Gibbo for years, from reading Bantock and discussions with many top boat designers it appears that they have a very different attitude about how to design winners than trying to go for a radical creation early on, before they really understand the leading edge creations and the way they work. Plenty of us have thought we could out-smart everyone else with our first design and very few, if any, have done so.

    Yes, Gibbo and Bantock did study, experiment and work like hell to get where they are today. Gibbo at least started off with fairly conventional designs and learned how to sail them really, really, really well and only then moved to design. Bantock's articles make it very clear that he is analysing existing designs, looking for their weak and strong points in various conditions, understanding why they work, and then trying to improve.

    That approach of being a top sailor and then spending eons researching why the winning boats win is very different from having on go at RC racing and then deciding that a scow would be better than the Gibbo, Bantock etc designs.
     
  12. WerpKerp
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    WerpKerp Junior Member

    Look, CT-249, I'm twelve. 12. One-Two. I've been reading everything I can find. You can calm yourself. If you are an ***, don't let others know, please, by posting stupid messages.
     
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  13. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    Cool, and perhaps I could have understood it better. :) Forgive me for being snappy, on this site we do get lots of people who disrespect existing designers.

    EDIT - I had no way of knowing from your post that you were a keen 12 year old and not an old guy who doesn't respect top existing designers, like some other BDFers. There are many people who are disrespectful of successful designers and sailors. Please keep that in mind when reading the posts above.

    I'm no designer, but I've been lucky enough to interview many of the world's best and read many pieces from other top designers. They seem to normally have an underlying attitude that they stand on the shoulders of giants (as Newton said) and start by analysing existing designs, looking at the strong and weak points of each, and only then, if ever, creating a radical new design. Their underlying attitude to existing designers normally seems to be one of great respect, which many people here on BDF don't seem to have. It's not

    There's also some good advice on Lester Gilbert's IOM site that the best way to get into IOMs is by getting a competitive "standard" design. That always seems to be good advice, because unless you know that you can (for example) sail as well as anyone else upwind in 5 knot of breeze, how will you be able to evaluate your own design in those conditions?

    Years ago, Bantock wrote a piece for Seahorse about narrow beam. I can't recall where to find it, but it did have interesting information about the limits of narrow beam. As I understand it, IOM design in recent years has actually been moving towards increased beam and with that, increased performance. There's a chart by Bantock in another Seahorse article that you may have seen, with graphs of interesting designs that shows the thinnest boat doesn't have the lowest wetted surface. Looking at the sections it appears that it runs into the same issue that Moth run into - as you reduce waterline beam the only way to maintain sufficient bouyancy is by going to square sections, which have more wetted surface area than round sections. Bantock indicates the lowest possible WSA comes at 160mm waterline beam. So what would be the advantage of going narrower?

    You can't reduce keel weight significantly because they must be between 2200 and 2500g and you can't reduce boat weight below the minimum, so where's the advantage of a scow? Sure, they work if you can get crew weight out, in some size ranges, but then again the narrow "skiff" Moths were faster than the scow Moths.
     
  14. messabout
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    messabout Senior Member

    Hang in there Werpkerp. DO continue to look for better methods and designs. DO give some credence to CT249s commentary. Do acknowledge that the wizards like Bantock and others have pretty much explored the vagaries of IOM design and come to some valid conclusions.

    The fastest boat is not always the winner. The fastest sailor is almost always the ones on the podium. With that I council you to become one of those fastest sailors rather than look for some kind of design advantage. As advised elsewhere above, get a current design and practice and practice and practice until you can always assess a five degree shift from a hundred yards away. Only then will you be ready for International competition. The IOM is the fiercest competititve RC class going. There are some near superhuman talents involved in that competition.

    Not to be a naysayer but it is not the fastest boat that will deliver you to championships. Incidentally, though I fancy scow planforms, It is clear that they are not the best for spirited competition. I have a Marblehead scow out there in the garage that is a fine piece of gear but it is no match for the more conventional designs.

    Once again I say hang in there. ......I would be most surprised to learn that you are actually 12 years old because you write so much much better than the twelves that I am acquainted with. Get a decent, even a run of the mill, IOM and practice till your eyes fall out and you have exhausted a thousand batteries. Then you will be ready for the big time.
     
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  15. Dolfiman
    Joined: Aug 2017
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    Dolfiman Senior Member

    I found out this article very interesting on the IOM design challenges, in case of you have not yet read it :
    http://www.onemetre.net/othertopics/iomcomparisons/SeahorseArticle.pdf
    Your passion at 12 for such technical issues is great, that can help you progress with motivation in the basics that are necessary to master all that : maths, physics, fluid mechanisms, structural mechanisms, electronics, ...., opening you a large range of jobs at the end of your education process. Mixing fun and hard work is the best path.
     
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