Help ID the designer of this steel boat - Bec Scie

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by cadmus, Aug 21, 2013.

  1. cadmus
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    cadmus da boom hit'um 1ce 2often

    OK. I give up. What is it? Who designed it? Thanks in advance for the help.

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    Stumbled upon this brokerage advert for a "one off" built by Holland Boat Works in Toronto in 1978. Steel. Multichined. Full to 3/4 keel. Loa 12.00 m, Lwl 10.97 m, 3.35 m beam, 1.55 m draft, ~8 tonnes displacement, ballast 2.7 tonnes.
    Named:"Bec Scie" and it kinda looks like one with that green paint and small freeboard (not criticizing, I find low profile a asset).


    Original Broker Post:
    http://www.devalk.nl/en/yachtbrokerage/350471/STEEL-ONE-OFF-35-FT-SY.html

    Holland Boat Works are no longer in business. Contact for someone who worked there would be very helpful.

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    "Voilier Bec Scie" in google yielded:
    Previous owners were Jean Roy and Lorraine Joyal (also seeing John Roy), i think? I am unable to find contact info after many attempts:
    http://www.conam.qc.ca/radeauteur/fichiers/Radeau0812.pdf
    http://www.conam.qc.ca/conference/2008-12 Acores et Galice.htm
    It toured Europe in the late 00's:
    http://www.lejournaldesflandres.fr/...ne-feuille-d-erable-a-glisse-jusque-dun.shtml
    ummm...well...je ne sais pas:
    http://www.lepharedunkerquois.fr/ac...n-couple-de-quebecquois-a-fait-escale-a.shtml
    Any leads are appreciated. I think i emailed the broker properly but since it was sold i got no response.
    I posted this on http://metalboatbuilding.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=930&p=6925#p6925 some time ago without any luck.
    Cool, burly looking boat.
     
  2. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    I see she is home-ported in Montreal......that's a good clue.....

    The boat is essentially a copy of Peter Ibold's Endurance 35, modified for multi-chine steel construction by an outfit called Dufour Yacht Design, of 327 Ch. Normandie, Laval, Quebec. I haven't seen anything from these guys since the early 1970's.
     
  3. cadmus
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    cadmus da boom hit'um 1ce 2often

    Well Thank You Tad for such a precise answer. In no time at all. Wow. Thanks.

    I guess i am not surprised as they look identical but I have only seen endurances in GRP and Ferro. Never multichine. I will contact the address you provided (same as this?:http://www.dufour-yachts.com/en/) to see if they made others and to see if they converted the plans or used someone else's.

    If anyone knows of an Fe or Al multichine plan please let me know.

    I will also still try to find the old owners as their input on pros and cons is appreciated.
     
  4. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    As far as I know Dufour Yacht Design of Canada (Robert Dufour) is not in any way associated with Dufour Yachts (Michel Dufour) of France. As I mentioned Dufour Yacht Design has (AFAIK) been out of business for probably 35 years......

    This seems to clear it up, sort of....aluminum not steel, and built by Kingston Yachts http://cashpitt.tripod.com/perce_neige/
     
  5. daveydavey
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    daveydavey Junior Member

    Dufour 35 build by Holland boats of stony creek ON in steel. I own one.... sadly a long stalled project.

    Dave
     
  6. cadmus
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    cadmus da boom hit'um 1ce 2often

    What do you mean by a long stalled project? If you own one please give me your opinions. what style rig? Are there plans floating around anywhere. I had never seen an endurance in metal before this conversation with Tad. But online i have found 1 aluminum and several steel. I am still considering this design. How well does she point? handle storms? typical speed on a passage? handle light winds? how wet is she on a beat? etc? etc?.....
    With those overhangs do you get any hobbyhorseing in big wave/swell situations?

    I had and still have every intention to send snail mail to the address Tad provided. I certainly googled it and looked for the most recent contact info for Dufour and the most recent owners of that house (address). But i never sent a letter. I should, funny how anything that involves a stamp has become a big exercise.
     
  7. daveydavey
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    daveydavey Junior Member

    Unfortunately I have no idea how she sails, though here on the great lakes, I would expect slowly indeed. ;-)

    Mine is rigged as a cutter, perkins 4-108, lead ballast, etc. Was basically a stationary liveaboard for a couple who dreamed of cruising her. Unfortunately their sail repair business and other life events caused them to reconsider and get a houseboat. She had a very rudimentary interior but had originally been built and sailed in Newfoundland, so she was rigged and able.

    I bought her, proceeded to remove the (really bad) interior and had her shipped to a pro yard to make some changes for the intended purpose at the time (bluewater cruise with family of 3), then came twins, an increasingly demanding career and.... here we are. And there she sits.

    Before I bought her she was in the water and I went to the marina during a very squally day - all hell was breaking loose - dinghys airborne and club racers thrashing, snapping lines and heeling toerails under docks. (plenty of damage)
    I was helping folks, and at one point went to "Coralita" and stood on her immobile deck. In one really huge gust she gently heeled a few degrees, then settled back. I smiled.

    This is a very big small boat, with a short waterline length and high freeboard. I cannot imagine she'd go well to windward or in light air but she'd be comfortable in a blow and would probably carry sail and balance pretty well well. The flush foredeck is spacious and I like the bulwarks, the sprit and the mast in a tabernacle. The pilothouse is tall, (IMO the boat is barely big enough for one, or for a flush deck) and it is difficult for shorter sailors to see over the pilothouse when steering. Raising the cockpit sole (an intended mod of mine) must be done caution, and respect for the boom..... Remarkably, the engine and tanks are under the pilothouse deck, with tanks in the keel below that, and there is still over 6' headroom. This gives you a sense of the capacious bilges, despite the shortish LWL. She's gotta big belly.

    The combination of flush foredeck and pilothouse means that there is a large break in the interior, you step down out of the pilothouse around a foot. This division creates some challenges in the layout, but the hull is indeed voluminous. (again, for the LWL.)

    The windows are kinda large for a real offshore passagemaker IMO, one of my mods was addition of the capability to easily bolt on storm shutters or whatever they're called.

    The design is a winner (literally, the endurance did win some award I believe) for a singlehander or couple who wants a basic, rugged offshore boat with flush decks and a pilothouse and capacity for extended cruising, and are willing to sacrifice some sailing ability. Most boats with this feature set are in the 40'+ range, and everyone I can think of is hefty and probably expensive, with lotsa sail and heavy gear.

    The designer (Ibold really, and in this case, Dufour) managed to fit a lot of boat in a small footprint and still have it look pretty good. Cramming in an inside steering station, nav station, real galley, settee and multiple berths would be a real challenge.

    Hope that helps. I think I have the builders plans somewhere.

    Dave
     
  8. daveydavey
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    daveydavey Junior Member

    Just looked at the pics shown in that listing - nice job on that boat. Some interesting things. He put the galley down below (in what would be the main sleeping zone in port) no doubt it works, but was not what I'd intended (concerned about heat, grease, noise, seasickness....) and added two quarter berths at the expense of cockpit lockers. So, he fit two more berths and all or most stowage must be up in the "forepeak" which makes sense most of the time. You can see how the divided cabin makes it challenging to fit everything you might want. That owner certainly made the most of the pilothouse and make clever use of the space.
     
  9. daveydavey
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    daveydavey Junior Member

    Dug out some info - see attached.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. cadmus
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    cadmus da boom hit'um 1ce 2often

    Ohh. That is too bad, but are you still planning on finishing the project.
    As is the case with all endurances. I do not mind the short waterline and slow hull speed. On a 20 day crossing it would turn into 22 days. big deal. But the overhangs add windage and I hear they suffer from hobby-horsing but never does that come from someone who owns one and spent time in miserable weather.
    Sadly my big fear is upwind performance. All the hardy big keel boats I trust never have upwind performance and that is a safety liability in my opinion. I hoped with that 3/4 keel, kinda cutaway front, someone would say something positive.
    I had been emailing people with GRP endurances so see if anyone has put together polars. I have had no luck finding people with the metal versions.
     
  11. cadmus
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    cadmus da boom hit'um 1ce 2often

    Sailing teaches kids and young adults so much about life and work ethics and math.... I sure hoe it works out for you.
    I just last year spent a day with Ed Arnald who I knew had solo circumavigated, rounding cape horn several times in an aluminum Brewer Huromic 35. But what i learned was of the cirumnavigations and criss-crossings of the globe while his 3 kids and wife were along for numerous years. All middle school and high school age. on a (couple) boat(s) <35' long. So my fear of a kid (which i now have) was lost. You'll get her back in the water. Middle school is such a wast of time (and mean), have the twins do it on a boat, I say that as a former public school teacher.

    My wife and I were ready to move to the ocean, my PhD is winding down. Then I got a very unique job and she made a kid. We are now staying in the landlocked state. So we are in the same boat. But I am not giving up.
     
  12. cadmus
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    cadmus da boom hit'um 1ce 2often

    I agree, I like galleys up top for the reasons you say and then some.

    Yeah, births normally became the place i bunjie chord duffle bags of gear.
     
  13. cadmus
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    cadmus da boom hit'um 1ce 2often

    Pilot House: glass houses sink ships

    Fiberglass battens over the glass is a strong solution given the space it takes up when stored. I agree. But I would be building from scratch. I plan to (if i end up with a pilot house design) treat the pilot house as a hard dodger and ensure a water tight companionway in between the glass and below deck. This is the compromise because EVERYONE has a great time in a boat when sitting, eating and even cooking when they can see the surroundings. The mood is just better especially in bouts of rain and snow. But as you implied: 'glass houses sink ships'
    I liked the design for that reason, as I hoped the floor of the pilot house was above or nearly above the waterline. (I am 6'1" but my wife is 5'7").
     
  14. cadmus
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    cadmus da boom hit'um 1ce 2often

    Thanks for the pdf of that article. If you find anything else please post it.
    Certainly you have pics of yours.
     

  15. daveydavey
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    daveydavey Junior Member

    Not giving up - its just economics and time. Career trajectory was inversely proportional to used-boat-market trajectory. I could now buy a boat for less than what it would cost me to finish that one, and I can now afford one! This was not true when I bought it. No big deal, just a life lesson. With hindsight, I do not at all regret not stuffing three kids and a wife in that boat and attempting to educate them while travelling on a shoestring.

    Extended cruising for me will now be a less compromised early retirement endeavor, one way or the other, and I'm good with that.

    Merits of designs - plenty of chatter about that from other non-experts, so I'll not bother other than to say that IMO, for liveaboard cruising, I think that average speed on all points matters much more than the highest possible pointing ability, and that a longer, more easily driven boat will over time be faster and more comfortable than a shorter more beamy boat of similar displacement and sail area.
     
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