Hello! - and a Thomas Colvin Junk

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by DAlanCheek, Jun 28, 2019.

  1. DAlanCheek
    Joined: Jun 2019
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    Location: Maryland USA

    DAlanCheek New Member

    Ahoy!
    I'm Alan, and I'm grateful for your time!

    I saw an old thread entitled "Thomas Colvin Junks" but didn't think raising a zombie thread was smart.

    I live near Chestertown MD - The historical schooner Sultana was built (resurrected) here - her name was in that old thread.

    I am currently drooling all over a 50' Colvin 3-masted junk. I know less than nothing about Mr Colvin or junk rigs, but I'm definitely willing to learn.
    I was saddened to hear he'd passed but exponentially more so that his genius is silenced & plans aren't available. Were I his family I would give them to the world!

    My plans have for decades been to spend at least one (decade) hoboing around the islands & coastal Central & South, diving beautiful places, etc.

    I decided to stop and introduce myself - I've ordered his books "just "because" but would be grateful for any information you don't mind sharing!
     
  2. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
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    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    HI Alan, welcome to the forum !

    Why wanting such a big boat? That's a lot of work and costs, not only to build, but also to maintain and sail.

    There's one you drooling over built in 1988 for sale in Arnold MD on the eastern shore, just across the bay bridge less than an hour drive for you I'll guess, so an option to check it out for real (spare link to the boat, broker is Mid Coast Yachts in Galesville MD).

    — Colvin junk schooner Mysterious Ways
    [​IMG]

    Tom converted his last built and owned boat, the 37' LOD junk rigged cargo schooner Antelope, to a gaff rig.

    JRA* Hall of Fame - Tom Colvin PDF (quote from page 4, 2nd column ± bottom ½, and 3rd column ± top ¾)
    * Junk Rig Association
    There's a Cruising World Oct. 1992 magazine article about Antelope on the thread Thomas Colvin's designs post #18
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
  3. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
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    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Talk about Sultanas on the Colvin threads might have been about Tom's 52' Sultana design, not to be confused by the HMS Sultana replica in Chestertown MD, but maybe at that time Tom was inspired by the name and maybe a bit by the weight of that one. Howard I. Chapelle has drawn plans for the HMS Sultana from the original Admiralty draughts.

    — Thomas E. Colvin Sultana design —
    [​IMG]
    ‘‘ 45’ on deck YANKEE POINT’s displacement being 51,000#, SULTANA’s was 70,000# for just a 7’ increase in length. SULTANA at 52’ (shown above) has been a very popular design. Some are used as yachts; others were set up for commercial diving; several have been used as freight schooners for long hauling. They all enjoy a magnificent reputation for their seakindliness and, surprisingly, for their speed under sail and the power to carry their rig in heavy weather. Several have been built by their owners, and I consider it the largest size feasible for an owner/builder. ’’

    — HMS Sultana (50½' LOD) replica on the Chester River in 2013 —
    [​IMG]

    The ferro-cement hull of the 56' LOD Larinda built in Marstons Mills MA was loosely based on the lines of HMS Sultana.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
  4. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
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    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Here are Tom's Junk designs on the WayBack Machine

    OOTHOON
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    KUNG FU-TSE (Tom's own boat before Antelope)
    [​IMG]

    LUK CHIN
    [​IMG]

    ‘‘ Multi-chine and round bottom junks, based on the Hainan junks, range from 42’ to 150’ in length. The most popular ones are OOTHOON at 41’, KUNG FU-TSE at 48’, and LUK CHIN at 54’ which have been built in both steel and aluminum. The 54' junk has also been built as a round bottom steel hull. The larger sizes are usually round bottom since, in larger sizes, most builders prefer this type of construction and are equipped to handle the bending of round bottom frames. These are excellent sea boats. The larger ones incorporate daggerboards, while on the smaller ones used for yachting I have substituted a long shallow keel which opens up the whole interior to an infinite variety of arrangements. Most of them have made long voyages and, as such, I like to keep the engine and fuel tanks very close to the center of floatation and center of buoyancy. I also use the engine room with bulkheads at each end to isolate all machinery. This provides good working conditions around the engine. Most vessels have access doors for passage through the engine room; whereas, in others the engine room bulkhead is not pierced and access is from the deck only. ’’

    The one for sale in Arnold MD (given figures: LOA 50' - LWL 36' - B 11' 9" - D 5' 5" - Displ. 34,000 lbs) might be an KUNG FU-TSE with wheelhouse, rigged like the above pictured OOTHOON and the LUK CHIN drawing, she also could be a OOTHOON or a bit stretched one, as brokers are often sloopy with sizes and a bit optimistic about length. From the given beam and LWL and the shown 3 mast settings I'll guess the one in Arnold is based on Tom's OOTHOON design.

    KUNG FU-TSE
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The last drawing shows KUNG FU-TSE was originally designed with 4 masts, the stern one was later removed from Tom's boat, the in the last side view shown 3 mast option has the then mid mast moved a bit aft.

    The in the last drawing shown rudder is fenestrated, see the thread: Why does this 1986 steel Junk have holes in rudder?post #5
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
  5. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
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    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    The Junk Rig Association photo gallery has some pics of the Colvin Oothoon Madam Wong with a center pilot house in pic #215 till #219, most are clickable for enlargement, there are more Colvins to be found when you go through the gallery.

    [​IMG]

    pic #216 & #219, Colvin Oothoon Madam Wong

    [​IMG]

    for comparison below the Colvin Mysterious Ways which is now for sale in Arnold, those might be old pics

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Looks to me like the about 41' LOD Colvin Oothoon design, she could be a bit stretched and have a bit deeper keel though, so she might be harder to tack and have a tendency to trip over the deeper keel into a knockdown when unfortunate pushed aside in a beam seas, since the shallow keel as designed always has been reported as just right.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
  6. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
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    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Here's a closer look at some of the 34 provided and maybe old pics of the Colvin Junk Mysterious Ways, which is now for sale in Arnold, MD.

    [​IMG]

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    The interior looks like a never finished mess to me, while the boat might have had several owners over time who all couldn't or wouldn't overcome this, but there's nothing shown structurally wrong though, as far as I can judge from the pics.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
  7. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    Just a word to the OP - the Junk Rig Association site wrongly denigrates other rigs (to the stage where some JRA people basically say things about rigs that are completely and utterly untrue) in order to promote the junk. That is not attacking the junk rig, merely saying that some of the tactics used by some of its advocates are pretty dubious and therefore you may want to really carefully check their claims.

    To give one example, one junk rig fan shows photographs of conventional boats he went past in a daysail one day - but the conventional boats were all wearing small jibs despite the light wind. You can't really compare conventional boats under shortened sail to a junk rig under full sail, especially since the junk's claimed advantage of easier reefing is negated by the fact that the conventional rigs were unlikely to need reefing since they were already under small sails.

    Others claim that junk rigs are as fast as bermudan sails, but race results prove that is not the case and the guy the JRA points to as being the expert in racing junk rigs says that they are actually very significantly slower than bermudan. Another junk rig fan described a passage and said that under any other rig, you would need to (if I recall correctly) leave the cockpit, but that is simply wrong - the manoeuvres she suggested could easily have been done from the cockpit with many other rigs. The junk rig fans also manage to claim that the weight of their rig is an advantage because the sail comes down easily when reefing - but that means that every time you go sailing you have to pull up the heavy sail, even when you are not going to reef. There are also other rigs where the sail will come down under its own weight which are lighter.

    None of the above means that the junk rig may not suit you, but it's important to be cautious about some claims about the rig.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019

  8. DAlanCheek
    Joined: Jun 2019
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    Location: Maryland USA

    DAlanCheek New Member

    Thanks to everyone for info!

    This turned into a ramble - hard to edit on a phone, so I'M SORRY!

    You're a bunch after my own heart - don't ask a question unless you're sure you want a complete answer! - and 5 or eleventy related ones as well!
    (HeyLook--A-SQUIRREL!)
    XD

    Seriously, I appreciate all the edgumication you nice folks are willing to serve up!

    Obviously it was "Mysterious Ways" (like it!) that caught my eye! I'm A BIT surprised the owner didn't link more pics - other folks asked too, he said FB wouldn't let him u/l more and I won't impugn a man's integrity but others had exponentially more... FB is a squirrelly app for sure... Irrelevant.

    I had plans to be in the Carib by now, but life intervened & I'm not even out of my albatross of a nightmare house! And just as I start getting some traction again my back decided 30 years of foreplay was enough & we are getting down & dirty NOW!

    So I've been in bed since February. It WILL take surgery - know my body - I'm being electrocuted from my ribs down, they can't fix that with PT & gabapentin...

    I bounced back fast after artficial cervical disks (FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS GET FUSION!) a couple of years ago & I'm more motivated now!

    Seriously, anyone with Lumbar or cervical problems, send them to me! It is an honor to pay it forward!
    My luck dictates that whatever boat I fall in lust with will become unavailable one day before I'm ready to buy - but I can look, drool, etc!

    I don't play games with people's time, I ID as a tire-kicker for now!

    As to Ms. Ways, she seems GREAT to me. Solid STEEL hull, no Tupperware sneaky "everything is perfect except for (CREAAK-GROOAN-SLAM!) OOPS! THE KEEL DROPPED OUT ON THE HARD ALAN! 5 MINUTES AFTER I CASHED YOUR CHECK! THAT was unexpected!") ... crap to worry about!

    I know 10x as much about sailing a Gaff-schooner rig as the ZERO I know about a Junk rig - so there IS that too! He said it will need sails soon, I figure I could learn a bit o' Junkin' on the bay, beg or bribe some G-S time & replace or refit!

    With (apparently) keel-stepped masts & a steel frame & hull I'd expect there wouldn't be TOO powerful-much-risk - wouldn't expect to have to worry about a deck-stepped tearing loose from a delam soggy-deck that was well hidden and taking us all down - I'm a decent welder, can even cast SOME parts of zinc, lead, aluminium, bronze & MAYBE copper.

    I LOVE the existing (per-pics) cabin! Looks perfectly functional, LOTS of open space!
    I would ENJOY finishing it out! Something about "it'll be ok as-is" that makes improving fun- but "has to be done" makes it SUUUUCK!

    Miss Ways probably isn't really realistic - but... I'll also have tanks & compressor for sure! Room to handle whatever looks to be available!

    Anyone know the conventions on airguns? I'll HATE being disarmed - I agree with GW that "A Gentleman unarmed is undressed" & modern UHC large-caliber airguns (SCUBA-PRESSURES) aren't really GUNS in most places! Sorry... tangent...

    Assuming I have to keep hunting, would probably lean toward a center-cockpit or maybe even a cat - simply for creature-comforts - but I like the "...Ways thought experiment!

    I wouldn't expect to be doing any racing, it SEEMS like she would be likely to be pretty stable even in weather, & I could CONSIDER the flywheel stabilizer tech if I hit the PowerBall!

    With how she's priced I'd have a LARGE slush fund to play with!

    Always figured on some bay-time to get to know a boat, down the ICW to shake things out & hopefully get to know what I didn't know I didn't know, mess around the Keys to get some kinda- blue-water time in before flipping an East-West coin!

    I never figured on getting too far out & crazy - didn't ever consider a circumnavigation - but if I found the right "First (LAST!) Mate" who knows!

    I want OPTIONS! No firm plans but wind & whim!

    Thanks for the warm welcome! Maybe I'll sit a spell if nobody minds!
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
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