Heh, heh!!

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Gary Baigent, Aug 19, 2010.

  1. Gary Baigent
    Joined: Jul 2005
    Posts: 3,019
    Likes: 132, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 509
    Location: auckland nz

    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Yachting: Oracle set to shun US as hosts
    12:09 PM Thursday Aug 19, 2010

    The next America's Cup looks likely to be a multihull event.
    Oracle is set to shun the United States and hold the next America's Cup in Europe.
    It's understood there isn't the financial willpower in the US to stage the regatta with the State of California broke.
    Commentator PJ Montgomery says Larry Ellison is also poised to announce the Cup will not be raced in mono-hulls.
    He says we should know in the next couple of months that the America's Cup will be raced in multi-hulls in La Maddalena in Italy.
    Montgomery says there could be a small revolution from challengers on Oracle's hands.
    He says Team Origin has already indicated it is not interested in multi-hulls.

    - NEWSTALK ZB
     
  2. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    That makes sense.

    After seeing the proposal for the monohull I figured that it was intended to push the event toward multis, where BMW-O think they have an advantage.

    Most of the potential competitors will probably sit this one out.

    The Golden Rule is reigning once again in the AC.
     
  3. Gary Baigent
    Joined: Jul 2005
    Posts: 3,019
    Likes: 132, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 509
    Location: auckland nz

    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Paul, there will be other potentials, especially countries where multihulls are very strong; like Australia, the Brits will be there, France of course, Italy in their back yard, the kiwis won't turn the chance down, Denmark, the Dutch, Sweden, maybe the Russians will be coming - there will be others - course I'm just guessing ... but we will see.
     
  4. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    The existing Brit team has already said they will not participate in a multi format. So some wealthy POM will have to be found to fund another syndicate if they are to play. I know the Kiwis have stated their reservations about it as well.

    Italy will be there, since the challenger is an Italian team. Even if Larry has to prop them up financially at some point they will have to be there. The other Italian team, Prada, has said they will not have another go.

    So far I've heard nothing about any teams from any of the other countries you've listed. It will cost a lot of money for someone to compete with the perceived head start BMW-O has.

    BMW-O has also spent the past few months buying up a lot of the available talent out there, while other teams have not been so organized. That is going to make things even more difficult for new start-ups.
     
  5. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,679
    Likes: 346, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Great to hear about multies-if it is a fact. Not so great about "staging" the event in some other country. It should be here and in San Fran......... Oh yeah-and it would be downright un-American: the first time the America's Cup won by an American is defended in a foreign country-won't happen(I hope!).
     
  6. Gary Baigent
    Joined: Jul 2005
    Posts: 3,019
    Likes: 132, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 509
    Location: auckland nz

    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Scoop: the Cup in 2014 on 72 feet catas with wings!

    BMW-Oracle Racing will announce it officially next Tuesday, but voilesetvoiliers.com is able to assert it to you from today: the defender of the next Cup of America cut between monohull and multihulls! The 34th edition will compete on 72 feet catamarans (22 metres) endowed with rigid wings, very certainly in 2014 in San Fransisco.
     
  7. Gary Baigent
    Joined: Jul 2005
    Posts: 3,019
    Likes: 132, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 509
    Location: auckland nz

    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Besides the rigid wing, motors will be allowed to raise appendices, the crew should limit itself to a dozen and the objective is to attain 1,2 times wind speed to windward and 1,6 times offwind. From memory, USA 17, the 27-metre trimaran with its 72-metre wing, exceeded wind speed in certain conditions of more than three times in Valence last February.
    In summary, catamarans in future should resemble big Extreme 40's but endowed with wings. Oracle has already bought two new X40's.
    Spectacular benefits of Extreme 40 of Oracle with onboard cameras during tests mass media, at the end of July in Valence, influenced the future of the Cup.
    The competitors rally In Carthagène, in the South of Spain, where this week the fourth stage of Audi MedCup is being run, are united a majority of the future competitors as Team New Zealand, Team Origin, Artemis, Synergy and All4One. Debates turn a lot around information which circulate bit by bit.
    The Anglo-Saxon, however predominantly favourable to the monohull, receive news warily but confirm that they will participate in the 34th edition, even in catamaran. For Team New Zealand and Team Origin, it doesn't much matter the support, they will be present.
     
  8. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,679
    Likes: 346, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    And a bit more-great find Gary-think it's real?

    a fine google translation,well, sort of:

    The comparisons made in Valencia in July between two Extreme 40 catamarans and two monos RC44 , all clad cameras seem to have tipped the balance in favor of the multihull .
    For several months, Russell Coutts repeated that the desire BMW Oracle Racing , winner of the America's Cup , was modernize test and make it much more attractive media- - More dramatic , the better shot and better scripted .
    The choice of giant catamarans equipped with rigid wings that is a logical approach . And allows the defender to pass to keep a step ahead in terms of architectural research . All work done for two years on the wing ofUSA - 17 will be of value to defend the precious silver ewer in four years.
    " Anyway , they had no choice, this ensures a bad language in Cartagena. Given their poor results in boats these days , the Louis Vuitton Trophy as the 1851 Cup against Team Origin in early August in Cowes , they should choose a multihull to stay ahead architectural ... "

    As in Valencia in February , the future of the America's Cup is written with wings ...

    Large Extreme 40Future catamarans must fit the gauge that U.S. Sailing ( U.S. Sailing Federation ) is in writing , according to the specifications defined by the defender.
    In addition to the rigid wing , theart engines will be allowed to meet the appendages, the crew should be limited to a dozen people and the goal is to reach 1.2 times the wind speed upwind and downwind 1.6 times . For the record, USA- 17 the 27-meter trimaran with its wing of 72 meters, reaching in certain circumstances more than three times the speed of wind in Valencia in February.
    In summary, these future disaster should look like large Extreme 40 with wings . Moreover, Oracle , who already had two in two other recently purchased (See also the experience aboard our reporter Manon Borsi this info to the masthead )

    The dramatic benefits from both Oracle Extreme 40s at the camera clad " test media " in late July in Valencia , have weighed on the future of the Cup .
    The challengers are mobilizing
    In Cartagena in southern Spain , where playing this week during the fourth stage of the Audi MedCup , met a majority of future challengers as Team New Zealand , Team Origin , Artemis and Synergy All4One . Discussions revolve around a lot of information circulating in bits.
    The Anglo - Saxons , though largely favorable to the monocoque , greet the news with caution , but confirmed they will attend the 34th edition , even a catamaran. For Team New Zealand and Team Origin , regardless of medium, they will present. "It's good to clarify things between multi-and mono, but it would be preferable that Tuesday's announcement is not limited to this , For its part says Stephane KandlerThe team boss Franco - German All4One . To assemble a competitive team, the important thing is to know the tonnage of the boat to begin work . The place and date of the 34th Cup are equally critical to be able to mount a competitive team . "

    Mark Turner, here at the start of the last Barcelona World Race , is slated to host the 34th America's Cup .

    Mark Turner , future organizer ?
    It is always Cartagena came the last weekend Mark TurnerThe owner of Offshore Challenge , and organizer of the Extreme 40 circuit .
    "It came to pass his oral exam , Some joke , to serve as the partner of Ellen MacArthur is the leading candidate to host the 34th America's Cup . Others believe that his presence was primarily related to the Extreme 40 , which could underpin a new competition next year . Perhaps for two reasons ...
    Former manager of MacArthur 's career , Turner was converted in organizing sailing events since the Transat 2004 , then to the iShares ' Cup and the Barcelona World Race.
    The end of the boat ?
    One thing is certain the Louis Vuitton Trophy stop late November after Dubai we confirmed the phone Bruno Troublé. Oracle has decided to seize the initiative next year and to organize itself six new events . By boat ? Nothing is less certain. As proof , some challengers as the Aleph the French have already canceled their participation in the last Louis Vuitton Trophy Dubai . The Russians have not yet decided Synergy . What good is spending 200-400 for 000 boats racing in the last time? Because it is likely that Future tests are conducted in Extreme 40This would explain the purchase of the four catamarans.
    With nineteen Extreme 40 already built , future challengers who wish to train should find some opportunities . Other multihulls like the old 60 foot Orma arouse lust for training sessions . According to rumors, the Americans have already reserved Groupama 2.
    The Class C , these small catamarans adults who dispute the Little America's Cup should also interest the world to learn to manage a wing. Besides - chance would have it - the now well known Little America's Cup currently underway in Newport . And guess who gets the girl ? A James Spithill, Helmsman for BMW Oracle Racing , ...


    http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/cou...2014-sur-des-catas-de-72-pieds-avec-des-ailes
     
  9. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    I heard this a couple of days ago, but the word is the venue will not be SF.

    Interestingly, the current issue of Sailing World magazine has an interview with Vincenzo Onorato. In this interview it says:

    Onorato, like most in the game, favors a fast, planing-style monohull of 75 or 80 feet: "Catamarans are beautiful on the water, but we must be realistic. The closer the boats are, the better the racing."

    This quote comes after about a page of writing telling us Onorato is a partner with Coutts in choosing the boat type, and he is not a pushover or rubber stamp.

    So the fact of the multi choice seems to be contrary to his wish, and also the published wishes of the British Team, the NZ helm, and many others. The Golden Rule is in full effect.


    In the I4C racing this week we have seen pretty much zero match racing tactics, and when pre-start tactics were attempted we ended up with another case of a wing sail boat in irons at the start of the race (a la the last AC) while the other boat sails away alone. Very interesting regatta from a technology standpoint, not very interesting from a match racing standpoint.

    Is this what we can now expect from AC34?
     
  10. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,679
    Likes: 346, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ==================
    Most people who saw the races between Canaan and Alpha in any wind would dispute this......

    NYYC commentary:
    Ashby and Spithill were passed on the first leg by the event’s defender Canadians Fred Eaton and Magnus Clarke. Then it was a full-on rumble between these two cats, both designed by Steve Killing, and indeed, both owned by Eaton. Anyone who ever said that multihulls can’t match race was forever silenced by this display.There were passes galore – the absolute essence of racing. The winning margin was two seconds in the Australians’ favor. http://nyyc.org/archives_public/article_834/
     
  11. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    Please point out for us the "Match Racing" that went on between the boats. During the fleet racing the two best boats avoided each other almost exclusively during pre-start. No one tacked on anyone, no one lee bowed anyone, they slpit tacks out toward laylines as often as they sailed the same tack, and generally could not be found in the same photo frame.

    So please tell us all, in your expert opinion, where the match racing tactics were employed?
     
  12. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    Oh, is see you are up to your old tricks again of changing your posts at a later time.

    Have you even seen the races, or are you once again simply parroting something someone else says?

    If you have seen the racing then you will be able to tell us about the match racing that went on that led to the "passes galore". How many was that exactly?

    Maybe once you have finished telling us about all the match racing in the one race alluded to in that quote maybe you will regale us with the stories of all the match racing that went on in the next 5 fleet races, and in the two actual match races today.

    I won't hold my breath.
     
  13. Gary Baigent
    Joined: Jul 2005
    Posts: 3,019
    Likes: 132, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 509
    Location: auckland nz

    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    "and ne'er the twain shall meet," eh Paul - but you need to have a beer mate and accept what is happening. Lead mines are finished. And the specious match racing bleating has to go also. Lead draggers will just be sort of cute, quirky, vintage things soon. Nothing wrong with vintage yachts, important history and all that and I love them ... but you're not going to get many yachting recruits or interest by appealing to the small numbers enamoured to vintage designs. More power to Ellison and Coutts and co - they have got it absolutely right.
     
  14. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    I am as enamored as you are with the sheer technological wonder of these machines. I would rather see a fleet of 25 of these things instead of the 25 J105s I see at the big regattas out here. I am a techno weenie. Today I was even thinking about what it would take to build a scale model wing to play with.

    However, from what I have seen so far in either the last AC or the current I4C, the type isn't suited well to match racing.


    In Track and Field they have the 200m Dash and the 200m Hurdles. The hurdlers are not as fast down the track as the sprinters. It is a different type of contest with a different skill set. If someone came along and said let's remove the wooden bits from this event because the times would be faster, would it still be the 200m Hurdles?

    Ditto things like the Breast Stroke in swimming (vs Freestyle), or Greco-Roman wrestling (vs Freestyle).

    I like all sorts of sailing. High speed has its place. So does technical match racing. If you can have both togehter, good. So far I have not seen it.
     

  15. SteveMellet
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 196
    Likes: 7, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 88
    Location: South Africa

    SteveMellet Senior Member

    I think the problem started when the AC was modified such that it BECAME match-racing, for the sake of the sponsors. It`s origin has nothing to do with match racing, but lies in the DoG, and you will know that the early races produced winning margins of 30minutes or more, in leaded boats, as the challenger / defender produced a superior DESIGN (and no-one cried foul that this was not "match racing"). The AC is, was and should always be a technological DESIGN competition, showcasing the ability of a DESIGN team. The actual sailing is only there to determine which DESIGN is superior.
    The reason it is being discussed here, is that this is a DESIGN forum.

    If you want match racing, then follow the TP52`s or the Match Racing World Tour. The AC has never been about everyone going slowly together, for the sake of a close finish.
    The LAC has been true to this philosophy, and has not attracted huge sponsorships, television schedules, and w*nker billionaires. It attracts a small following of spectators who understand it for what it is, and want it to be this way.
    Yes, catamarans don`t lee-bow eachother, they tack slowly (relative to their sailing speeds), and they sail for pressure rather than following lifts and headers. But if you watched Glen Ashby bear away around the weather mark and head downwind while keeping it on one hull, you might get it. Or not.
    But I`d love to see him do that with a 70ft version.
    Incidentally, the misunderstanding that cats tack slowly is just a product of the difference in speed between a cat tacking and one sailing.. My lowest speed around a race course on GPS was 4knots, during tacks, which is around the speed most same-sized monos would expect to top out at going upwind..
     
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.