Heeelp - Design specific assistance required

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Fanie, Oct 20, 2007.

  1. Fanie
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Fanie Fanie

    Hello everyone.

    First post, and I'm in deep water here. To fill you in, I'm not a sailor. have no sailing knowledge or experience and has been on a mono hull only once before about 200 years ago. So if I ask silly questions I appologise sincerely in advance.

    Ok, what am I doing here ? I'm seriously considering building a thing (ahem :rolleyes: ) that has the capacity to transport four guys out to sea for fishing. Now I know this may sound weird but I've googled for this and actually found two threads related. Ok, sort of related.

    We're a couple (3, 4max) of friends that likes to do sea fishing but does not live close to the sea, and we're sick of surf angling. We think we can do better and enjoy ourselves more if we can get out there. We are power boat owners/freshwater lure anglers, but for some reason the idea of obtaining a sea-worthy power boat did not apeal to us. The first objection these power boats are big and heavy for towing and expensive to maintain and very limited in some aspects.

    What did apeal to us is a catamaran sailable raft, transportable, assemble and sail to where we wish to be. What I have cad-ed up to now is a 8m x 5m basic catamaran with 1m draught but I'm now considering modifying it to a a larger size of 10m x 6m maybe similar draught. The draught in this case is easy to increase or decrease. For ease of operation and simplicity a single main sail is considered. We won't be going for competition sailing either so I appologise in advance or those speed freaks who keeps track of the knots per hour.

    The weight of the 8m x 5m basic catemaran comes to 560kg, without mast, sail, and associated groceries to make this 'thing' sailable. This is the flotation pontoons, beams and a full size rigit floor to walk on only. It fits in a 2.5m x 5.5m trailer with room to spare. How I'll maybe explain later.

    What I would like to know from you experienced guys are -

    Is the idea nutty ? practical ? Please feel free to speak your mind.

    The 8m x 5m looks big in the back yard but may not look or feel so big on the water. What size would be a safe / better size to sail on the sea ? No, we don't plan to visit all the islands including .au :D We'll limit ourselves to the coast line.

    How big a difference will there be between 10m x 6m and 8m x 5m on an ocean ? and will the extra size (and weight) be worth it ? Keep in mind our coastal waters are not as tame as your's may be.

    I've got another thousand or so questions, but I guess I'll just have to start somewhere.

    Thanks in advance
     
  2. Trevlyns
    Joined: Oct 2006
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    Trevlyns Senior Citizen/Member

    Hey Fanie!

    Welkom hier by ons, ou boet! Despite my location shown as London UK, I’m a pure bred Sarf Effrican celebrating the Bokke world cup win. What a team hey?

    There’s just so much in your post but consider the following.

    8 meters will cross an ocean – easily. 10 meters will circumnavigate the world in comfort… much more than your requirements. Why not consider one of these designs. They are simple, inexpensive and trailable.

    http://www.wharram.com/tiki21.html

    http://www.wharram.com/hitia17.html

    Check out the rest of the site too.

    Beste,
     
  3. Fanie
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    Fanie Fanie

    Hi Trev !

    There are probably more SA people all over the world than in SA itself. You must be missing our weather there...

    Who are the Bokke ? :D (I can't afford to lose some of the UK guys here - some of them may be handy helping me with some things) Just one note though, you don't run into a SA guy to shoulder him out of the way ;)

    Ok, but that may be relative to a large extent. Our sea waters are different to those in Mozambique for instance. In Moz where they have flat waters, you can sail with a windrider 16 without any problems. I won't even consider it on our coast line.
    Last time at the coast we saw a motorboat just off-shore fishing, and to be honest it didn't look like much fun in the swells that was out there. It seemed more the guys aboard was trying to stay aboard, never mind fishing. Now I understand an 8m x 5m does have a larger area, but I have no idea how it will be aboard such a raft under the same conditions.

    Maybe you or someone else with experience in conditions like this could offer an opinion please.
     
  4. Basjan
    Joined: Sep 2007
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    Basjan Basjan

    Hi Fanie

    Whe're you from? I'm in PE.

    Points to ponder about if you go for sail:

    1) Where do you want to go fish?
    2) Sailboats have keels, so surf launching is out.
    3) You'll only be able to launch at the harbours and therefor your vessel will have to comply to SAMSA regulations not to mention all the other bearaucratic mumble jumble at the ports, so you will have to look it up.

    Groete

    PS - BOKKE BO!!!!!!!
     
  5. Fanie
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    Fanie Fanie

    Hello Basjan,

    Well, I now know of one guy in PE where we can launch ;)

    To answer your questions -

    I'm in Centurion, Pretoria.

    1. Where there is fish - may sound like a silly answer but one tends to go where you enjoy yourself the most. Moz is definitely on the list for one.

    2. We won't launch in head on surf anyway. Most of the places we will go out has some feature that breaks the waves - Mapalana and Cape Vidal have gullies and rocks that makes a natural shield against the worst waves. All the boats in the area launches there. We watched them and it would be possible to access open waters even in a too small boat.

    3. Harbor launching would of course be the easiest but as you indicated there's a lot of red tape involved which we would rather avoid - not that we plan to go about this irresponsibly or reckless.

    At this stage I'm merely trying to determine what to expect from what size rig. The worst waters I ever experienced was on Bloemhof dam - no waves, just inconsistent swells popping up all over the height of a ceiling. That was the only time I ever felt I wasn't going to survive. Took about an hour (felt like an eternity) to reach a calmer strip. My son who was with me at the time was crying, I made him sit and look aft (getting terminology right here) where it didn't look as bad. Back at the launching strip were some sunken boats including a ski boat that got flipped. The only boat that seemed to handle it well was one guy with a huge inflatable duck with twin motors.

    The closest to us is the Hartebeespoort dam where there are 3 cats afloat. I could probably ask one of them to take us for a spin, but it's not the calm waters I'm worried about and the power boat wakes are hardly something to go by. Maybe I should find someone (preferably in SA :D) with a cat and beg to take us out to get a feel for what we're into.
     
  6. Basjan
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    Basjan Basjan

    Hi Fanie


    You'll definitely have to go for a spin.
    Sailing is definitely not the same as turning a key to start an outboard.

    I go out regularly with a friend who has a rubberduck and have been to sea on a few powercats.

    I had a look at the website Trevlyns mentioned and it seems that ,that is what you are looking for.
     
  7. Fanie
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    Fanie Fanie

    Ok, how or where do one find someone who will be prepared to sail you out on the sea with his cat, and what will such an outing cost ? Me and one friend will participate. It would be nice if the cat is similar to an 8 x 5m so one can first hand experience how such a craft feels out there. We could leave here ie Friday night, spend the Saturday there and return with our notes on Sunday

    I had a look at the link Trev posted. Tbh, there's so many really nice looking catamaran's, and expensive especially the larger ones - but since I'm from Gauteng-e-leng, the crime capital of the world, of course the urge to just steal one... ;) Jail sentence couldn't be more than a week, month tops :D
     
  8. Fanie
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    Fanie Fanie

    One can probably have the best of both worlds here, if you have smaller motors ie 28 to 40Hp on each side as well as a sail it's up to you to decide what means of power you'd like to use. The sail of course won't use any fuel.
     
  9. Basjan
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    Basjan Basjan

    It depends where you wish to go. Allour major ports have yacht clubs so you might start with them. Google a bit and you will likely find them on the web. They will know of people to contact, usually there will be a boat owner / member who wants to go out but does not have the crew.
    Alternatively,try locating a yacht club nearer to you. There should be a few around your area, Vaaldam and Hartebeespoortdam. Go there on a windy day and you might hitch a ride on a hobycat. The're not as big as what you invisage, but it will give you an idea of what to expect. Maybee you can use them as a base for a design, just upscale.

    Have you considered howfar out to sea you are willing to go and what fish you want to go for?
    It might seem a silly question, but if you are planning to do a lot of trolling, you will be better of with a powerboat giving you the constant speed.
    If you are going for reef fish, a sailboat will do as you will most likely lay at anchor.

    If you do consider power boats, heres some notes:
    There are a few small skiboats around that can be utilised with 2 x small outboards (from 15hp up), won't use a lot of fuel and can be towed with the family car. Only problem is that these boats are usualy safety rated for short ranges up to 5 nautical miles of the coast.
    SAMSA regulations state that a powerboat with one outboard motor may not go further than 1 nautical mile offshore whether or not the boat is rated higher.
    Rubberducks are a lot of hassle, to much maintenance and care.
     
  10. Fanie
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    Fanie Fanie

    Hi Basjan,

    I think it will be the best to find someone with a similar size catamaran and go out on the sea. I want to experience the real thing. Unless you guys tell me the dams are just like the sea.

    How far out to sea... mmm. One always say not so far, however if there is a scool of fish further out, who's going to stay close ? I would rather prepare for the worst (or is it better ?) The word 'willing' you use may not be chosen too well since we already are prepared to drive the 600km down to the coast...

    For the most part we'll probably sail to a spot and drop the anchor there, while trolling when underway. We may at times trol hence and forth if we get some success in a specific area. Most of the fish gets released in any case but an occasional one may be kept for dinner or even live bait for night fishing.

    Someone made the mistake to tell me a Zambezi shark has a Yamaha built into it's butt, so it's become one of my personal ideals to get hooked into a nice fat one. I know shark numbers are going down so I'll just play with it after reeling it in and then let it go after a while :rolleyes:

    I'm curious, are you suggesting a boat under sail is not suitable for trolling ? I had it in my mind to make the main sail (as the only sail) and being able to pull the spar ? (horizontal of the main sail beam) up against the mast to get the boat to stop if required.

    Also, with a sail boat you can travel long distances and does not have to find a fuel pump at the end of each day. I suspect fuel planning on the big dam is a vital if it's your only source for travel other than drifting.

    If one can overnight on the water on these cats you don't have to spend the time traveling to an area back and forth all the time. We will of course plan for a safe place to dash to if bad weather comes along. Hopefully it won't be to somewhere in the ocean centre.

    We have agreed in principle not to go for a ski boat per se', the sailing cat, spacious, stable and fitted with two smaller outboards, for if or when required seems like the ideal thing for our requirements. We want to enjoy it as well and not only rush somewhere in a fury catching all you can and dash back to camp, battle to get the boat out on the trailer and make for the braaivleis fire, dead tired. I've already seen the stainless steel braai on one of the cats, so it's on the list of ingredients...

    I'm trying to find out if what I'm about to tackle is the right thing. Trev suggested the 8 x 5 should do the thing, but I've got many questions around this since we're not going to have a full catamaran with lounge / sleeping quarters and the likes. Which is why I'm trying to get some info out you guys with catamaran and sailing experience

    Te-he, an article I read suggested that of the crew on a cat, the smallest member must be able to be handle it on a night watch. Philip is the smallest so I'll print the article and we'll put him on night watch, (he doesn't know it yet :D)

    We're not even considering a duck even if you pay us.
     
  11. Wynand N
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    Hi Fanie,

    as jy dit kan dink of droom, is dit moontlik.....

    actually, I think you got a good idea if all the small problems can be overcome with such a project.
    Why don't you give me a call and maybe I can be of some help for what it is worth. I am even prepared to do the basic design and construction drawings for a berth on her when you guys are out to hook the big ones on the other side of the horizon:D

    Remember what John Lennon said in one of his songs; "there are no problems, only solutions".....
     
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  12. Fanie
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Fanie Fanie

    Hi Wynand,

    Alles is natuurlik moontlik, dis net ons self wat die grense stel...

    What a fantastic offer, and I will grab it with both hands ! Thank you very much. I have a customer on his way to me right now to fetch some stuff, but I would really like to talk to you. If you could foreward your phone number to me faze@wbs.co.za and a suitable / latest time I can phone I will do so.
     
  13. tuks
    Joined: Jun 2007
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    tuks Junior Member

    Fanie

    From what you are saying, im sure that you do not what a sailboat. It is just not practical for what you are trying to do. Sailboats are great for sailing but if you want to go fishing get a powerboat.

    - You cant launch a sailboat off the beach.
    - Sails are not like an engine that uses no petrol. Some days there will be no wind and other days there will be too much wind and when the wind is right it will be blowing the wrong direction.
    - It will take you much longer to get to the spot that you want to fish.
    - You wont be able to jump into the boat and go fishing, sailing is a skill that requires alot of time to learn.

    I think its great that you want to get out on the water, but the idea of a saildriven craft is not practical. I promise you, you do not want to be 10 miles offshore on a raft like catamaran with a sail when it is blowing 40kts and you must sail it through the shorbreak. Im not trying to be rude or shoot your dreams down but there are more suitable boats for what you want to do.

    What about a non-planing hull that uses an inboard diesel engine. It will be much slower than a ski boat with but also much cheaper than petrol outboards. I think somebody could make some suggestions here.

    I am a sailor and love sailing but it is not the right craft for what you want to do. On the otherhand if you really want to go sailing and sometimes go fishing then get a sailboat.

    I am constantly amased at the fuel consumption of yanmar inboard diesel engines used in most yachts. Maybe someone around here that knows actual fuel consumption figures can give you some more options.
     
  14. Fanie
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Fanie Fanie

    Hi Tuks,

    The more I think and ponder the idea the more I become sure a sailing catamaran is half of what I (we) want. The other half of it is the two smallish outboards you can use if you do want to use them.

    If you trim the sail and raise the rudders you can use the outboards and you have a large comfortable motor boat to fish from and you can actually walk around on this thing. If I casually would like to explore the coastline I trim the motors up, drop the rudders and raise the sail. This won't cost anything and you can relax and enjoy the surroundings while still trolling. Put a nice braai together, take some pictures.

    I've seen too many guys running into problems with ski boats. Before I came to this forum I browsed the net a bit to see what's the safety record for these catamarans, it seems somewhat better than trailable ski boats. It's not about the cost of fuel or the motors. It's about the boat.

    Ski boats, at least the trailable ones are heavy, too narrow to be safe, crowded with fishing rods, and all the stuff you and your friends take with. A ski-boat has no head. No chance to relax and shake the city buzz. You also need a 4 x 4 to launch on the beach. You cannot overnight on the water in a ski boat. It's an uncomfortable, crowded and expensive setup, and not to our liking. The only advantage you may have is the ski boat is probably faster.

    It seems it's a common thing for the cats to stay away from land for probably as long as you wish. The one I drawed is easily towed, and can be assembled at the water in probably the same time we would take to pitch camp. The usable area is comfortably big enoug so four guys won't rub shoulders and get in each others way all day long, and if the catamarans are as stable as they say they are, what a winner ! It also means all the time I would take plowing back to shore and out the next day would be scored if one does not have to rush in and out every day.

    It seems the only drawback is you cannot lanch head on in the surf. I guess you'll get wave pounding ;)

    I have long ago already suggested that used car tyres, something that is in abundance, be bonded together in large blocks and weighted with big cement blocks and dropped just behind the breakers. This will attract fish as a reef and make for a safe place to launch any boat from. Car tyres also does not polute the water and such a reef has no maintenance. The excuse is always the same, who and how much.
     

  15. tuks
    Joined: Jun 2007
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    tuks Junior Member

    Hey Fanie

    I misunderstood what you want, I thought you were looking for a budget fishing boat, but if you want to overnight comfortably with heads and a little space, you obviously have plans for something bigger and more expensive.

    I am still doubtfull about launching off the beach though. If your boat will be big enough to overnight, you should join a yachtclub, they have good facilities for safely launching boats. There is no need to try and build your own breakwaters.

    Why dont you post some drawings? I am interested to see what you have come up with.
     
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