Hedley Nicol Trimaran Plans

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by oldsailor7, Mar 12, 2010.

  1. taow
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    taow Junior Member

    update, after a few very interesting calls this morning, and the info you guys have put up, things are looking better, a big relief, so a big thanks guys. and once we are back on the hard stand we shall work out what road to take then as to the full repairs ;) think i was maybe getting worried more then needed, so will see how we go on the beach, only a few weeks away now
    Regards to all
     
  2. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    Those bolts go through the ama keels and through the whole fins unless another piece was added to deepen things later. While I tend to agree with Phil about using a NACA section, wider foils can increase pitching. Epoxy glassing things on works but there is something to be said for the bolt and bang approach and the utility of the original design if you spend lots of time beaching and exploring thin water. if the edges get too roughed up the foil section becomes much less important and offwind fatter foils add more drag. Like many catamarans today the cruising approach was often to start the engine when the wind was on the nose. The 3 fin approach using all 3 hulls was also used by Norm Cross for boats used in shallow water. These pictures of a Cavalier with a single Cross keel and skeg rudder were sent by Gypsy 28.
     

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  3. taow
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    taow Junior Member

    hey there cavalier, yes i found out this morning or as it is now, yesterday morning about the bolts, but cheers, and glenn oshea's boat has the same set up as in these pics you just posted, pretty sure if you go back a few pages he had pics of it, only he has a drop down keel on the centre hull, what are the down sides to removing the outer hull keels ?
    and what would be the diff between the flat keels i have and keels that had an aerofoil shap to them? if you have any thoughts on that matey
     
  4. oldsailor7
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    If you have a properly designed LAR keel, dagger or centreboard in the main hull, you don't need fins on the float hulls. The fins are just a nuisance anyway.
    I had outboard daggers on my Piver Nugget and they were a pain. I scrapped them and fitted a Norm Cross LAR keel. It transformed the boat. It became close winded and tacked like a dinghy.
     
  5. taow
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    taow Junior Member

    sorry might sound stupid and i did a search on "LAR keel" but couldnt fund any info, so can you explain more on what your post ment please Oldsailor? or any one else please, maybe compare it to what the wanderer has at moment please
    cheers maybe a link to some pics even to see what a LAR keel is? and i dont have a dagger or centre board and think theres alot of work in putting something like that into it.
     
  6. oldsailor7
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    taow.
    If you google "Low Aspect Ratio Keels" you will probably get more information than you need. :)
     
  7. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    The only downside to removing the outer keels IF you make the main keel deeper with appropriate foil section is less protection for the ama skin when drying out. You could add extra layers of glass etc... or leave on a few inches of keel. The boat will heel more when it dries out so the main keel should be built to take the diagonal load. It will be wider with say a NACA 0012 section so should be better braced. My boat has la few laminated floors inside to spread out the keel loads. The former owner of the Wanderer Hawk I posted the PDF on awhile back had those floors too and said it was a common mod in Oz to keep the keel from being punched through the hull skin. With a foil section the main keel foil will be wider than the keel so something has to support those edges. With the ama foils removed the sailing loads on the ama-beam connections will be lessened. If you think about flying airplane models a flat wing will fly but one with curved foil sections will fly higher and longer. Unbelievers can go to the toy store and get a few gliders to compare. And yes daggerboards and centerboards are a lot more work to install.
     
  8. taow
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    taow Junior Member

    thanks i looked that up oldsailor,

    and very good way to put it, cavalier, did any of the wonderers come out with an aero shape keel or are all like a flat board with just a rounded leading edge with a slight angle? and although the yes the aero foil on a planes wing works as such, if it is the same for keels, why did the wonderers not have a aerofoil shape to the keels when made? cheaper not to, or best idea at time maybe,

    has any one else played with this idea and or there keels, i think id like to leave on for the beaching side of things and for the hassle i believe there would be to installing a dagger board or drop keel and internal box to house it etc. so would there be noiticable differances in having a aerofoil shape to the side hull keels (side hulls being called "ama" i assuming?) as to having the flat board with just a rounded leading edge with a slight angle as that is on my wanderer, which im guessing are the Original shape as per 1965,
     
  9. taow
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    taow Junior Member

    cant seem to add pics still, so even though its 3am and im tired as all **** i shall go log onto the shed computer and see if i can load some up from there ;)
     
  10. taow
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    taow Junior Member

    hopefully this will work, if so is what the keels look like, and 2nd pic is the stupid S/S boots he put on very very poorly, be hind the side part of the S/S boot is where the glass has opened to expose the wood of the keels, on both sides and no doubt caused by grounding perhaps.
    the white its what looks to be fibre glass putty, the black spots at the lower right of pic look as if something leaking from the wood through the putty, being black i'm guessing not good
    please be noted have done little boat building work in the past, have owned a few trailer sailors both being boomerangs, 4 small beach cats and sailed from my teens on and off over the years on smaller sailing bots, owned a few stink boats, as my mate likes to call them,(power boats) and 2 jetskis that had enough parts to make one working jetski,
    so anything you notice please feel free to give you thoughts on.
    if i was ask why i was on the forum, my answer would be to learn, so pass on the knowledge if your willing, if you dont know please leave it to those that do know, so we dont waste any time, but by all means anyone have your say and spread your ideas.
    with great thoughts, come great ideas.
    with great ideas, come our own perfect dream to enjoy.
     

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  11. taow
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    taow Junior Member

    well it worked so heres also a before sale pic and a pic as she is so far with new rigging,sails a big clean up and some touch up paint so she dont look so old and tired as i think she was looking in the pre sale pics
     

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  12. taow
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    taow Junior Member

    and this is on the leading port side keel have no idea, but its rusting, why ever its there, do the keels have a metal flat bar under the leading edge glassing?
    and then theres another steel flat bar bolted and screwed in, running down the outside and under the S/S booting but its only on the one side, althought there are signs that there had been one on the starboard side keel aswell, most likely happen before the putty patch up job....
     

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  13. catsketcher
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    catsketcher Senior Member

    She's got some history

    Gday Alex

    I don't know if you will ever sort out all of what happened to your boat. As I said before she was looking very very sad in 1985 when I got my first tri. I used to go over and dream about doing her up then. It may sound strange but she looks a million dollars on then and the last paint job is great. I would avoid worrying about the plans and such - we know so much more now than Hedley ever could have in 1963-4 when he drew your boat.

    I really don't like the steel on the keels. If she were mine the steel would be off ASAP and I would get in there with a grinder. You may end up cutting off the whole keel but and I say it again - its easier to build new rather than fiddle with old if the old is bad news.

    Get some good epoxy and glass where the steel is. Modern building is to NEVER use a bolt underwater that pierces into the hull skin. Rip it off and glass. Easily done.

    cheers and she looks great now

    Phil
     
  14. taow
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    taow Junior Member

    thanks phill, simple paint can do wonders, and more ill have to make dew, and buy a $500,000+ cat in the next life, and the s/s on the keels will be removed, he was a weird one this old fella and not to honest for his age.
    as for the brokers they have still failed to answer the accreditors, doesnt make them look good at all, and its been sent before the board committee, is what they last updated me,
     

  15. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    Plans are important to know where things started from and what is modified for better or worse. For example finding those ama fin bolts with a saw could have been dramatic. All the Nicols had the plank keels on all 3 hulls and many were modified. I'll try and make time to post a sketch but mine was made into a LAR keel leaving the original plank keel on. It was kept as a central member but widened to about 4 inches, deepened, then had a ply bottom put on to the foil section (gosh knows what, there are issues....), pieces on the side were added to hold section widths connected to a ply foil section on the bottom of the hull. Around this ply sides were sprung, probably in a couple laminations and the whole thing glassed. It has stood the test of time and beachings and points out that you don't always need to remove the old construction if sound. In essence it is now hollow Cross style LAR keel. If sound existing flat ama fins could be left on curved foil sections can be added to their sides. Foam would be nice here to save weight. Back in Hedley's day cruising waters that were less than charted, pulling up to the beaches for barbies and not having epoxy to hold it all together the bolted plank fins made a lot of sense. The amas were asymmetric for the foil section when heeled so they were aware and learning. Barnstorming relics and updating to modern cruising always takes some research but useing the boat is the best way to find out what improvements you need for your style of sailing. Our Vagabond MK2 is hotter than a Wanderer but I'm sure your boat will have occasions to keep up with expensive cats, they've been very upset when we have passed them. Whether you spend 2 dollars or 2 million the water is still the same and getting out on it is the reward. If you do bump on the hard with your Nicol it'll be less traumatic than with that polished condo cat. The paint does look good.
     
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