Hedley Nicol Trimaran Plans

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by oldsailor7, Mar 12, 2010.

  1. oldsailor7
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    You only have to cut off the rotted part on the bottom, replace it with new wood, epoxied in place and re-glass with epoxy.

    When I replaced the daggerboard on my Piver Nugget with a LAR keel, I also screwed on a metal half round strip along the front and bottom of it to protect it from banging on less than sandy shores.
    Worked well for me. :D
     
  2. taow
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    taow Junior Member

    do you glass over that metal strip? or is it exposed to the water? cause to me that then becomes a weak spot?
     
  3. taow
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    taow Junior Member

    i say that because the ***** that i bought the boat from did this, which in turn is now my problem, sadly the last owner has turned out to know jack **** about boating and has caused most of the failing problems that i now have, and this comes from all the boat builder that have seen the repairs made by this fool. and its not the metal i call weak its the screwing into the glass and wood to attatch the metal.
     
  4. oldsailor7
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    No, glass the wood with epoxy. Drill a pilot hole for the screw. Screw the screw into the pilot hole, through the metal strip. Back it out and then fill the hole with epoxy and screw the metal (preferably bronze) strip back on. Do not glass over the metal strip, because the glass will be ruptured at the first contact with a pebbley beach. The half round strip has to do the protecting. The epoxy will prevent the water from penetrating into the wood around the screws. It works.
     
  5. taow
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    taow Junior Member

    as much as id like to see this, this is exactly what is on the boat now and its not working and over the short term is not working, because as you said the first beaching on solid ground will make movement on any steel added and there lays the problem, it was water tight to start with now its not and its now an even bigger problem then it was to start with should someone just have glassed it properly in the first place, sorry now ill will in tended
     
  6. taow
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    taow Junior Member

    thats meant to say no ill will, not now theres ill will :)
     
  7. oldsailor7
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    Taow.
    I can see your point. Perhaps you should just heavily glass the bare wood.
    I used to glass all my daggerboards with three layers of 10 oz glasscloth set in epoxy, all laid up on one operation and well rolled out with an alloy "cookie cutter" roller to extrude all the air bubbles and get all excess epoxy onto the surface. In your case it's the bottom edge you have to "armour" heavily.
     
  8. taow
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    taow Junior Member

    yes that i intend on doing, my problem is the bottom edge wood is wet and now the boat is and has been sitting in the water for a month, no dout the wood is soft and if not got wood worm in it, so i want to cut at least 100 if not more of the lower edge of the outer hulls keels off, and then reglass the new edge, and when seeing the old boat in cavaliers post above, i cant see why i couldnt just do that, hoping then i would have a stonger piece of keel to work with rather then trying to glue a piece of wood to replace it, this becoming another weak point, with out the wood i was thinking this would be a stonger edge, and id use an anti abrasive type glass matting, as triwanderer told me about, its the cutting of the keels that im looking for apinons about, the glassing is cool as i will have my very own glasser aboard with me when we beach the boat to do the work between tides, probably should have said i have to work with in the tide changes, anys it'll get there and i dont really for see a big prob shortening the depth of the outer keels by as little as 100, 200 or maybe even 300mm, will just depend on what i see once im on the beach, cheers for your input as all input is worth hearing, useful or not ;)
     
  9. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    Hi Taow, in the photo those are the stock Cavalier ama fins. The Vagabond MK2 fins are deeper at the same length. Stock Wanderer keels were a bit smaller but many deepened them to improve the windward performance. I'd replace the bad wood in what you have or the whole thing. The main keel fin and ama fins were designed as expendable items for crunching through the coral and beaching. They were to be made of Mahogany, these days African would be your best bet. They are bolted to the ama keel and glassed and puttied on the outside of the joint. To remove unbolt on the inside of the ama and use a grinder etc.. on the outside glass at the joint to cut it free. When installing epoxy coat the inside of the bolt holes and use good caulking. There should be hardwood pads and big washers under the nuts on top of the keel to keep the bolts from pulling through the fir keel in a grounding. You could just section off a bad chunk with a vertical cut and undo its bolts,grind etc... then install the new piece with a scarf to the old section. When changing the keel areas etc it is important to keep the center of lateral resistance as close to the designed location as possible to avoid lee or weather helm., A number of the boats have been modified with centerboards etc... or deeper main keels without the fins. They all do the job with varying compromises and benefits. More draft, less room, harder construction better windward performance. An advantage of the float fins is when beaching on harder ground they protect the hull skins. These boats were designed to explore shallow water so check out where you plan to cruise when thinking of alterations.
     
  10. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    The plans actually said don,t bother glassing the fins but replace when things get too chewed up. Obviously bad from a sailing point of view put practical from the gunkholing angle. I'd use polypropylene or Vectra for more abrasion resistance. The different depth will make a difference as the ama fins bite deeper into the water when the boat heels doing most of the leeway prevention.
     
  11. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    If you cut into the fin be prepared to run into the fin bolts. To do the repair you should remove them then reinstall to hold the new piece on while you glue + for grounding strength. You should still epoxy coat the holes if possible and use the caulking.
     
  12. catsketcher
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    catsketcher Senior Member

    Go the whole hog

    Taow I would get rid of the whole lot and start again

    Low aspect ratio keels like on Toroa are pretty high drag and slow but if you cut it down they will become lower aspect still.

    I would recommend that you cut off the keels on the floats and install thicker proper NACA section glass foils. If they can be a bit deeper that would be very good. You can make them out of glass in a steel mould (search for that thread about two weeks ago) or build them out of ply or cedar glassed over. I usually find it easier to rip off old bits of boat that are not working properly rather than fiddle around with them.

    Remember we have learnt a lot since you boat was built. Lots of cruising cats go okay upwind with keels with proper sections. Get rid of the bolts to hold it on - use unis and double bias. Ask at Shawns yard - he knows all this stuff better than most.

    cheers

    Phil
     
  13. taow
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    taow Junior Member

    thanks cavalier, sadly matey ill be beaching it to do these repairs so im not sure ill have the time aval to go as far and removing the complete fin, you mention the bolts, do the bolts go all the way to the base of the keel? thats some good info to know, for now i dont have the option on hard stand, so a quick but lasting temp repair to seal the fins is what im hoping for. and as i said it'll be a beach repair so ill have only the time between tides to get what i need done and only a few days to do it, sadly the boat and all the problems are becoming a joke, concidering it was meant to be usable boat now, well $25,000 later and shes sail able, be fore that it was a death trap waiting to happen! should be a place to warn others to stay away from brokers that put making a $ before honesty and the safety, you would not believe the sh-it i have and am going through, half the sh-it is either not on the boat or not working, 9 x sails that dont even fit the boat, and so much more. the last owner was a complete DI-CK HEAD and a lying sh-it to go with it, but then that also makes me a fool for believing him in the first place, and as for the broker he had an accreditation that was meant to be a buyers garantee of an honest broker, they where given 7 days to respond to the issues i raised, and they havent, coming up with all kinds of excusses, to avoid answering as long as they can, ok whinning over with for now,
    and cheers phill as ive stated i only have a quick temp fix aval to me for now, when i get back to bris ill work on putting her on the hard stand or transporting her home where i can do a better job, by then im thinking ill know and understand a hell of a lot more then i do right now, so first i need to find out how far these bolts go through and then go from there, but think ill just rip the stainless steel off-cuts that are very poorly fitted and used as some sort of boot on the fin, ill get ride of them and glass over the exposed area, and hopefully it will last till i can get her back on the hard stand and undo all the stupid and cra-py ideas the last owner did to her and being the guy says he was an engineer, im sure as hell i wouldnt ever go to him for any work, you should see some of the dumb things he came up with not to mention the poor welds about the boat.
    sorry about the whinn people but dam i feel better now :p
     
  14. oldsailor7
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    Taow.
    I didn't realize that you expect to do this job on the sand between tides. :eek:
    In that case why worry. Any rot in the fins can't affect the hull, and the boat will still sail until you can get it up on the hard and do proper job.
    I suggest you just leave it until you can replace the fins with new ones.
    Just MHO.
     

  15. taow
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    taow Junior Member

    well you might think that ,but water can and is traveling up the fins to the hulls, so damage can happen to the hulls still, and if wood worm gets into it well im pretty sure that becomes even more of a problem, its not the boat but the work that was done on the boat by the last owner that is the problem, and alot of the problem was my lack of knowledge at the time, and trusting what the owner and broker were telling me, but we life and learn, this doesnt mean one has to put up with deception and not fight back against these type of people, and once back in bris it will be atleast 6 if not 12 months before i can hard stand, and the money for the hard stand and refit went into making the boat safe enough to sale, out side the boat looks not to bad, its all the shi-t that has been told to me after the sale thats the problem, from the mast having falling off in 8kts, to dodgy repairs that were patched over to cover up the problems, although it looks fine i have big leaks with large water intake, on the first sail not a problem, after the first sail all these repairs started falling of or failing once the boat was in the water and wet again, but i do intend fixing them asap only asap may not be for some time. and i dont want to just leave it till i get time to repair it properly, i wanna stop or slow down the any further damage,
    am i going to far maybe you think? i dont think so, i have my kids and mrs that want to come out sailing and i truely cant find it in me to ignore that and just leave it till i get time or money to do proper repairs.
    i dont know maybe im coming across as a whinner, but i love my sons and would never forgive my self if i just ignored some of these problems.

    ps i think i have been saying from the start that ill be doing the work on the beach ;) sad but my only option at the moment
     
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