has anyone used Smith & company Epoxy

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by akkevin, Aug 23, 2010.

  1. akkevin
    Joined: Jun 2010
    Posts: 32
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Petersburg, Ak

    akkevin Junior Member

    They have a product called Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer. It is to be used on the seams of old wooden planks prior to caulking. Anyone used it or can give me some advise on whether it preforms as advertised? Thanks in advance.
     
  2. akkevin
    Joined: Jun 2010
    Posts: 32
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Petersburg, Ak

    akkevin Junior Member

    Oh, to see the project I would be using it on see the "My Project" thread
     
  3. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Hands off!

    We discussed that **** here a while ago.

    NEVER use epoxy on caulking. You destroy your boat!

    Someone should file a lawsuit for screwing their clients properties..........
     
  4. akkevin
    Joined: Jun 2010
    Posts: 32
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Petersburg, Ak

    akkevin Junior Member

    Thanks Richard, I was thinking that the advertisement was better than the real deal.
     
  5. Terrytt
    Joined: Aug 2010
    Posts: 3
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 5
    Location: UK

    Terrytt New Member

    The previous poster doesn't understand the product. Its designed to reduce the change in moisture content of the timber - the idea is that you choose the moisture content you desire - then soak wood in CPES and it will allow moisture content change but at a much reduced rate - and it doesn't suffer the problems that a conventional epoxy has - such as promoting rot when water ingress occurs. Its a very thin product and soaks into the wood - it doesn't act like a glue like conventional epoxies.
     
  6. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Read more here:

    http://www.epoxyproducts.com/penetrating4u.html

    notice: the "competitor" mentioned is exactly the one named in the OP post.

    notice:

    YOU do not choose the humidity of the planking/framing of a old boat! The weather conditions and the conditions of your material do that to the larger extend.

    ALL the claims made on these websites have by so far not attracted any of our professionals to use the products advertised. The opposite.
    (valid for the linked one too)

    Save your money and replank/recaulk as it is proven practice since Hannibal crossed the Alpine Mountains.
    Soaking some stuff into a plank with dry rot is as dumb as putting a tape on it and let it be good.

    And BTW

    the stuff does NOT penetrate much deeper into the wood than a solvent free solid Epoxy, but brings thousands of problems with the involved thinners.

    leave it...

    Richard
     
  7. Terrytt
    Joined: Aug 2010
    Posts: 3
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 5
    Location: UK

    Terrytt New Member

    >Read more here:
    >http://www.epoxyproducts.com/penetrating4u.html

    I've read this and nothing seems to contradict anything I've heard claimed
    about CPES. I'd obfuscate the nature of the ingredients of a product I sold to protect it from competitors.

    >notice: the "competitor" mentioned is exactly the one named in the OP post.
    >notice:

    >YOU do not choose the humidity of the planking/framing of a old boat! The >weather conditions and the conditions of your material do that to the larger >extend.

    Actually I DO choose the moisture content of my old boats. I can move them to a damp environment or a dry environment to allow them to reach the moisture content which I desire them to have - then lock this in with a highly penetrating sealant like cpes - this will reduce expansion and contraction in timber when exposed to the marine environment especially when coated with appropriate surface coatings.

    >ALL the claims made on these websites have by so far not attracted any of >our professionals to use the products advertised. The opposite.
    >(valid for the linked one too)

    Doesn't surprise me - as far as I can see you still don't really understand the proposed uses of this stuff. I suppose that its optimum use is for carvel planked boats which use timber as opposed to plywood planks. It has been tested as improving adhesion of subsequent varnish and paint coats too.

    >Save your money and replank/recaulk as it is proven practice since Hannibal >crossed the Alpine Mountains.

    This stuff is designed to make your planking and framework last longer - but you cross the alps on an elephant if you want to - personally I prefer driving or taking a plane.

    >Soaking some stuff into a plank with dry rot is as dumb as putting a tape on >it and let it be good.

    Agree - but if you want to make somthing last a bit longer before you replace it go ahead - I'd not use it in this way.

    >And BTW

    >the stuff does NOT penetrate much deeper into the wood than a solvent >free solid Epoxy, but brings thousands of problems with the involved >thinners.

    That contradicts what the report you cited above found - they found that increasing solvent content allows epoxy to penetrate much further. By problems do you mean that the epoxy doesnt' set hard - this is one of the advantages of cpes - it's not supposed to be a structural epoxy,

    >leave it...

    It's not magic - it has it's uses but learn about it and use it appropriately.
    Read some of Don Danenbergs material - he is a great exponent of it and he builds and restores some of the finest boats money can buy.


    >Richard
     
  8. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    I do not buy that claim, sorry. And I severely doubt you move a 20m boat around to achieve that!
    But given you would.
    When you have achieved the 12% moisture mark (anything higher is not appropriate for a epoxy coat), you have lost the race almost. Your fasteners are all loose and your seams are wide open.
    Thats a complete restoration then.
    Clever?


    Don´t cheat please, ply was not mentioned and has nothing to do with this topic!
    I have understood the sales drivel well, be sure. And I have understood that it is a moisture trap! The worst stuff you can apply on a classical woody.
    The adhesion of paint may be improved, wow. A issue nobody has a problem with, on wood.


    If that was the intention to make it last longer, I can tell you it perfectly failed!
    I am not Hannibal, learn reading.

    Of course it contradicts the report! It was meant to do.
    Except for end grain, where the solvents help penetrating a bit deeper, it does nothing substantial to penetrate any of the common boatbuilding timbers. And endgrain we don´t have, we have planks, miles of planks.
    BTW
    a deep penetration of epoxy resins is not desired in boatbuilding, only amateurs want that, not understanding the properties of the material.

    Sure its not magic, its snakeoil. Useless crap which destroys your boat. A moisture trap.

    Leave it for goodness sake.

    I understand that you want to promote your stuff, but you pee in the wrong pool here! Too many professionals around to contradict your statements.

    Richard
     
  9. akkevin
    Joined: Jun 2010
    Posts: 32
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Petersburg, Ak

    akkevin Junior Member

    Thanks for the tit for tat. I misunderstood the product. I don't want moister to be trapped in my ole' wooden planks. I must have misunderstood the advertisement as I thought it said it allowed the planks to take up water, not restrict the free flow of moister both in and out.

    I'm looking at some trees now that might be good in a few years and have some friends with a mill and the equipment to make some planks that will replace the ones that need it. All I really need to do is get the permits, cut them down, and haul them home (towed behind the before mentioned ole' planked boat).
     
  10. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    Sorry, studies after studies show that CPES do not soak into the wood.
    Read the reports inset of the promotional brochure.
    This BS is all over, it is quite pathetic.

    You do not know much about wood don't you?

    Daniel
     
  11. hoytedow
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 5,772
    Likes: 351, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 2489
    Location: The Land of Lost Content

    hoytedow Fly on the Wall - Miss ddt yet?

    Attached Files:

  12. Terrytt
    Joined: Aug 2010
    Posts: 3
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 5
    Location: UK

    Terrytt New Member

    I'll try one last time to explain the concept behind this product. You decide on a moisture content for your boat based on the environment, (whether humid or dry) which it inhabits. Obviously a 20m boat is likely to be spending more time in the water than many smaller boats. Mine are both trailerable and as such can easily be moved into a humidity controlled environment which I have despite your doubts. If I have a boat which remains predominantly out of the water I'll choose a very low moisture content, and vice versa. You apply the sealer at the moisture content you choose - it's only really effective if you can soak the whole planks, and is best applied to new planking. If you apply a standard hard epoxy over this - you would be staggered at the speed of water penetration (and subsequent delamination of the epoxy) if there are any scratches or punctures in the surface coating.

    CPES which is not designed as a surface coating will slow the penetration of water into the wood, but will reduce delamination of any paint coatings when this happens. On the inside of the boat it will allow moisture to enter and leave the boat very slowly - but since you've chosen a good equilibrium moisture content for your boat's environment - there shouldn't be much change.

    Any compressive set which has damaged plank or fastener integrity, which will show up when you reach your desired moisture content as wide seams or loose fasteners indicates plank replacement is necessary. I didn't say that CPES could counteract damaged planks. This compressive set will be much reduced by the use of CPES which will reduce the need for soaking boats, and associated plank movement and damage.


    I said that I was referring to solid timber and not ply. You seem to have a problem understanding simple.
    The whole point is that it's not a moisture trap like a conventional epoxy.

    No - the worst stuff you can apply is fibreglass sheathing - something you seem to advocate from looking at your gallery pictures.
    I
    Paint adhesion is a problem when damage occurs. This may not always be easily visible.

    Please cite your evidence - there's published evidence to the contrary.

    No you're right - you'd have been one of the people telling him that it was impossible to cross the alps with an army in the winter.

    Let me see if I understand you - you cite a report critical of CPES to substantiate your claim that it is worthless -then say you mean to contradict it's findings.

    Endgrain is the most vulnerable point of planking, and on shorter boats there's relatively much more of it.

    THere are plenty of US professionals who would disagree with you.

    The whole point is that it's not the same as hard epoxies which are moisture traps. You show considerable ignorance about this product - why not read some of Don Danenberg's material which describes its uses. He's one of the most respected boat restorers in the US and has published two books on boat restoration together with owning a successful boat restoration business. Boats restored by him command premium prices.


    Another incorrect assumption - it's not my stuff - and I'd rather use an amateur than a so called professional who advocates sheathing - the biggest promoter of rot in boats possible. I've also got a boat which was sheathed with fibreglass by a so called professional - and it's going to take a great deal of work to repair the rot caused by this method.

    Remember it's in professionals interestes for boats to rot quickly - they get more repair work, and they don't have to learn new and better techniques to repair boats.

     
  13. hoytedow
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 5,772
    Likes: 351, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 2489
    Location: The Land of Lost Content

    hoytedow Fly on the Wall - Miss ddt yet?

    Terrytt, you just joined the forum, so don't jump to conclusions about whom you are contesting. This professional you argue with has done his research and development on boatbuilding and restoration using many construction mediums as well as having a firm grasp on materials properties including chemical.
    Trap wet planks under epoxy and it will rot even quicker. If it won't keep the water in, it won't keep the water out either.
    The slur on Richard's character is untrue, out of line and unwelcome. Please retract it.
     
  14. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    CPES is a penetrating sealant?
    Do you know what is a sealant?
    Is a penetrating agent?
    Now it let the wood breeze letting moisture in, but before it kept the wood from letting the moisture going in and out?
    Shouldn't be must changes?

    You are confuse.
    Learn the wood first, then learn to apply the proper product for the wood.
    Daniel
     

  15. akkevin
    Joined: Jun 2010
    Posts: 32
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Petersburg, Ak

    akkevin Junior Member

    Seems I created a lively discussion. Living were I do and the boat I have, I do not want to "seal" a moister content. Who has time for that. Thanks for ever one's input on the subject. Maybe use this on rotten house planks to give me a year or two, but not on the hull. I was thinking about just painting the seems with it, not the planks. If I sealed the planks with it, it would be just as bad as the ***** that fiberglassed over the deck on the ole' girl (which is going to be next years project with lots of questions for the group).

    I guess it is time to look into how to get a permit to fell that tree I found.

    If it is "best" to soak the plank in it, I'm guessing it is not the answer I was hoping it was. Might as well build a plywood boat and glass over it at that point.

    Actually, fiberglass has caused, or is a contributing factor to all the rot problems she has at the moment.

    My caulking tools arrived and tomorrow I start to reef her seems.
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.