Hartley Flareline 16 project

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by djaus, Jul 12, 2013.

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  1. buzzman
    Joined: May 2011
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    buzzman Senior Member

    LOL...I got similar raised eyebrows when I asked a few places for D.O.T..... ;)

    My searching in Oz found only the Mabons, which is based in Brisbane but supplies to other places. You'd probably have to call them or email them for a local-to-you supplier, being in the Apple Isle..

    I'd never heard of Xynole (as per PAR above) so did some quick googling and apparently he is spot on - up to 3.7 times the abrasion resistance of epoxy on its own and 2.7 times the abrasion resistance of glass cloth and epoxy, according to tests done for Boatbuilder mag.

    It's similar to dynel, but is twice as abrasion resistant.

    I'm now beginning to understand why ply boats were so often "Dynel sheathed" rather than glass-sheathed. These fabrics (Vectra, Dynel, Xynole) are far more flexible than glass, even once resined out, so 'flex' with the ply skin, whereas similar weight of glass/epoxy would tend to crack and delaminate.

    Glass/epoxy for strength; Vectra/Dynel/Xynole + epoxy for flexability + abrasion resistance - in that order of types, lowest to highest.

    There was also a discussion I saw about aluminium and copper powders being mixed with epoxy and applied to rubbing strips as sacrificial material....easy to apply, but *very* hard to sand. Probably better off filing it... lol

    Amazing what you can learn on the internet, eh..?? ;)
     
  2. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    Dirk
    Good vid. Easy to see all the issues.

    I think my 4.5m Scamp might have a slightly better hull/frame than your Flareline, as I don't have anything like those rot isses. Empathy. :)

    If you're resigned to shortening the outboard well to increase cockpit space, why don't you just bite the bullet and remove the entire transom and start afresh?

    OK, so on the surface that might be an idea too far, but bear with me....

    The main problems you've been having are the pooling of water on the high sides of the stringers, and in the undrainable pockets formed by the transom ally supports, right?

    So removing the transom completely will enable you to cut 20mm wide notches at the transom end of each of the stringers, thereby allowing water to drain in future to the keel and drain plug.

    If you're concerned about strength issues, you could 'double' the stringer from the inside of the new cockpit well bulkhead right to the transom, thus forming an arch (well, a rectangular arch, you know what I mean) right at the base of the transom, but still providing the strength, while also allowing the water to drain effectively.

    The other problem you have with the drain plug is, as you say, it's in totally the wrong place, and really you should have two, one either side of the keel.

    So with the transom off, straightline/edge the space between the last stringer and the keel top, from the transom up the hull for about a foot, then cut a piece of timber or ply (probably easier to plane a piece of solid wood) to the bevel that is indicated by the straight edge.

    This way you'll have an 'uphill' slope to the drain plugs when the boat is level, but once the boat is raised at the bow, the opposite, and thus all water will flow directly to the (lowered) drain holes allowing no pooling, even at the plugs themselves.

    So rather than using up a huge amount of expensive epoxy to fill this section, use timber and just coat it (both sides to encapsulate it) before epoxy glueing it in place.

    Obviously, this will be a compound angle and *not* easy to plane or produce quickly, but will be a sophisticated and elegant solution.

    Also, remember that the boat usually sits lower at the transom, so will seldom actually be level, except when being trailered..!

    The other advantage to replacing the transom is that you A) now know *EXACTLY* what's going on there, and B) have the opportunity to stain and varnish the transom, and apply nice gold lettering - which always looks good on a wooden boat, and is much more appealing than painted timber.

    I think given all the exposed timber and soft spots, the Mabons would be a good investment. All those 'soft' edges on the timber frame you will need to gouge out until you reach hard wood.

    The fungal spores and rot microbes will still be there in the timber, so the borate treatment is essential, or it will simply return once filled and painted over. I found a good source of glycol is Actrol, about $45 for 5L.
    http://www.actrol.com.au/Products/Refrigerant-Oils--Gases/Glycol/Actrol-Food-Grade-Propylene-Glycol/

    So, how to fill it? It might sound easier just to mix up some epoxy filler, but this is a pain to work and get "square" edges like the timber around it, and will always look rough....

    Better way is to use a fine tenon saw, sharp chisel and/or a router in the areas you can get one into, and router/chisel it out so you have approximate square and roughly level on the bottom.

    Then buy some 20mm meranti of the same width and plane it back to the right thickness and let it into the space. Glue it in with thickened epoxy which will take up any irregularities in the frames surface.

    Use a small block plane to plane the surface smooth and simply paint over.

    If you can remove entire sections that turn out to be rotten, "scarf" in a piece of the same thickness/dimension timber. Ditto, ditto.

    The framing timbers are probably oregon/douglas fir, as that's what Hartley recommended, but that quality of douglas fir is hard to find these days and not cheap even if you can find it. Meranti or luan is similar in strength, readily available from Bunnings, and most importantly, is easy to cut, plane and sand. Very helpful when scarfing small pieces of timber...!!

    Just be sure to encapsulate it before glueing it in place.

    Another point to think about - and one which I've given MUCH thought to on my boat (sitting and staring at it, as you do) is the issue of floatation.

    Hartleys don't have any, and these days it's virtually mandatory for registration, and if not, is at least highly desirable, given who you'll be taking out on the boat. Kids. Loved ones. Mates.

    So adding some floatation at this time of restoration would be a good idea.

    Whatever you do, don't listen to those people who say "fill the space with foaming polyurethane". PU foam is *not* waterproof, and being liquid when poured in, sits against the hull, making for a water trap - and you already know what happens then!

    Either polystyrene or polypropylene closed cell foam is the go. Styrene is in either Expanded (EPS) or Extruded (XPS) types. The latter is better, but harder to find and more expensive. EPS is used on building sites and for fish boxes and so on. Comes in different grades (higher grades, smaller cells, more floatation). AUS styrene in Blacktown is one supplier, but there's bound to be one in Tassie. Or hunt around for 2nd hand stuff....

    Polypropylene foam is the stuff pool noodles are made from. Closed cell, very light, but not cheap.

    You really need to almost completely fill the space under the aft deck with foam in order to counter the mass of the motor, so the boat doesn't sink arse first if swamped.

    What I plan to do with mine is to also add 50mm thick styrene foam along the hull sides right to the bow, between the frames, then re-line the inside of the cockpit with 3mm marine ply, and varnish it - again, purely for appearance sake, but primarily to retain the foam.

    I'd have to look up the exact ratio of floatation required per kg of boat mass/displacement, but from *memory* it's about 1 Litre per kilo. So if the motor weighs 80kg, you need 80-L of floatation for the motor alone, plus the fuel tank, plus you and the family, etc etc etc. Lotsa foam!!

    I also intend to cut a 100mm thick slab of styrene and glue it under the foredeck, and cut and add as much extra foam into the forepeak as possible, leaving only a small space for the anchor well in the foredeck. Which if it's only 100mm deep will fit within the underdeck foam slab...

    I did find a source on the web of pool noodles by googling, as they are too exxy to buy from BCF or pool shops, and both styrene and polypro can be easily cut with a hot knife or a hot wire cutter, both of which are readily available on eBay.

    I planned to make a custom hot wire tool so that the foam slabs between the hull frames can be placed in roughly shaped, Sikaflexed into place (not epoxied) and then hot-wire-cut using two adjacent frames as the 'rest' for the hot wire, cutting from floor to deck in one fell swoop, and thus shaping the foam ready for the ply covering as well.

    Hope that's not too much info, but figured as I've had 3 years of staring at my project, you may as well benefit from some of the ideas I've come up with. :)
     
  3. djaus
    Joined: Jun 2013
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    djaus Salted Nut!

    I'm a low income earner so starting fresh with a new transom is an expensive option. I'm resigned to work with what I've got. If I had a few thousand to spare I wouldn't buy a boat like this. The less I remove is the less I need to buy & refit. I already have a few litres of resin & glass mesh from building model yachts. Buying ply & more resin is acceptable. Floatation is a good suggestion though. I have given thought to this. Lining the inside of the sheer with styrene from stem to stern & a thin ply outer skin is what I was thinking. 2 biggish blocks in the rebuilt transom compartments but not to stringer depth to allow drainage. Then some sheets under the bow deck with another big block in the nose. Fuel tank will go under outboard well with D/C battery/s & anchor/gear will go under the seats in the cab for weight distribution.
     
  4. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I wouldn't focus too much on things that aren't necessary, such as floatation. There's enough chambers and other contained spaces within the boat that she'll remain floating, maybe not as well as a boat with lots of buoyancy foam, but the need for this is exceptionally rare. Besides, the amount of foam or buoyancy chambers you actually need, to keep her in a recoverable, swamped condition is huge. Maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of the interior volume might need dedication to this floatation, which is a huge waste of space for something, that will likely never be needed. A buoyancy chamber is more effective then foam. With a deck plate, it can be ventilated, so condensation issues don't cause problems, it can be used as storage and you don't need to fit any foam in odd shaped places.

    The same is true of "making it stronger". This is a classic novice mistake, which usually just takes away from capacity, performance and fuel efficiency. This doesn't mean you don't address stuff that needs repair, but scarfing in a stringer repair or sistering a Dutchman, over a weakened structural element is all you really need.

    The aft end of the keel can be notched, to let water drain out or just a couple of drains, drilled through the transom, so all the water can roll out, when bow up on the trailer.

    All you really need is to remove the lousy paint and poorly stuck sheathings, feather out the areas, fill if required, prime and paint. Fix what needs it with simple repairs, rather then redoing wholesale sections. A cracked or rotten section can be cut out (a multi tool is good for this), a scab, sister or scarfed repair glued and screwed to the surrounding good wood and paint, is all it takes. This boat is known to be stoutly built, so you don't have strength and stiffness issues, except in the places where there's a problem (something broken or rotted). Work on what you need, hang an engine and go have fun, rather then make a silk purse from a sow's ear. You could make a career out of this project, or with some lipstick, you can start dating right away. Your choice.
     
  5. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    Good reply par. If it was me i would spend some money on the motor and buy a good glass hull and trailer off ebay to put it on. There are plenty around that just need a tidy up and engine. Most probably want new transoms but that is an easy job with lots of info available.
     
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  6. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    PAR
    The Hartley Flareline design has virtually no contained buoyancy chambers. Dirk needs to either build them in or add foam to achieve the same purpose. My Scamp has none at all.

    Cheap and readily available styrene is actually a better solution than sealed chambers, because these invariably create condensation which pools and causes rot.

    Large chunks of foam only have to be retained, not sealed, and if kept off the hull surface by the stringers, as they would be the way I suggested and as Dirk himself has thought of, they would still allow for ventilation and any condensation to flow down into the bilge and out through the drains.

    Any chamber 'ventilated' so as to prevent this would be useless for buoyancy - unless also filled with floatation/buoyancy foam.

    I agree that buoyancy or floatation can take up a large part of the boat, especially in the case of a boat with a large chunk of motor hung off the transom, but having some floatation is way preferable to having none at all.

    In Australia we have lots of river bars and similarly turbulent seas in which it is very easy for a boat to become partially swamped. Without floatation it goes straight down, leaving Dirk and his family floating in the water.

    In NSW where I live, wearing of lifejackets for children is now compulsory, as it is for all on board when crossing a bar, so perhaps this is not as dangerous as it once was, but frankly I'd rather have the buoyancy foam than not.

    And as Dirk is on a budget, and styrene is readily available from places like builder's skips for free, this is probably a cheaper solution than purchasing expensive marine ply with which to make buoyancy chambers.

    Another el cheapo option others have tried is to use plastic milk bottles, with their tops sealed with plumbers tape and epoxy, as floatation.

    You're right about the choice between "full surgery" and "a dash of lippie" - the latter is quicker and cheaper - but does nothing to address the risk of swamping, which is by far the biggest killer of boaters in this country.

    I was impressed when floating in my brother's pool by how much floatation a single pool noodle gave me, basically preventing my 100+ kilo frame from sinking. Two noodles actually raised me from the water.

    A pool noodle is 10cm in diameter and 120cm long, so approx 3.8L volume. Or 2 x 2L milk bottles.

    You need to allow for the volume of water in the swamped boat as well, which would be around 450L, which is a lot of milk bottles....
     
  7. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I'll bet the biggest killer of boaters in your country, hasn't anything to do with floatation, but more likely beer and a general no brain themselves into holes situation (inattentive, reckless and too fast boat driving). The laws in Australia are very similar to here, as are the pleasure boating markets as are the causes for accidents and deaths. The lack of sufficient floatation aboard, is way down on the list, so just playing the odds, you can save considerable money and effort.

    In a perfect world, no boats would sink, even if cut in half. In reality, it's usually owner/skipper skill or lack of it that is the main reason for problems underway. This isn't the boat's fault, with or without a bunch of milk jugs, duct taped to the underside of cabinet tops.
     
  8. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    LOL....yeah, too true. There are idiots everywhere.

    I agree, a responsible skipper could 'play the odds' as you put it, and be on the water much quicker and with less hassle.

    I guess, in the end, it comes down to personal choice. I'd rather not be out on the water in a boat with no floatation at all, even if I was wearing my lifejacket, especially if I had young kids aboard.

    In a perfect world the fish would jump out of the water and line up to be decapitated and gutted, which would save many of us the trouble of getting out on the water in the first place.

    I offer only observations and options, not prescriptions.... :)
     
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  9. djaus
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    djaus Salted Nut!

    Floatation is a must! I'm not a gambler so "playing the odds" is an unacceptable thought process. Boat accidents caused by stupidity will always exist as it does with drivers on the road. Being caught in rapidly changing ocean conditions is one of the biggest causes of mishaps in Aus. While your 2-3 kilometres offshore in a rolling swell, onshore conditions can deteriorate rapidly with the slightest of wind increase or directional change, combine this with the tide & you can end up in deep do-do in 15-20 mins. I'm no fool ok guys. I may never have owned a full size boat but I've been on the water since age 9. Been on power boats, yachts, navy vessels & square riggers. On the open ocean safety gear such as an EPIRB & PFD's are an absolute essential. Like a seat belt in a car, the PFD goes on you before you go on the boat. I'm happy to make an exception for some of Tasmania's inland lakes though. besides I'm not 100% committed to the Hartley rebuild just yet. So far I've only purchased a tarp & a new jockey wheel. Once & "if" I have bought a decent trailer, then I'll start getting serious. In the meantime I can spend a bit of time casually removing bad bit's and contemplate my next move, I'll keep the vids coming too, maybe once a week weather permitting. I'll also be sure to rely on this forum for sound advice.
     
  10. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    So, how many times have you been swamped since you where 9, Dirk? I was born on a boat, raised on an island and have been capsized, knocked down, hit by lightening, run over big hole making logs, you name it, in every size boat imaginable and never once did I need to rely on the built in flotation a boat had. You'll find that this is the case for a significant percentage over 99% of the boating community. In fact, what I've found (statistics back this up) is if you're in conditions that can overwhelm the boat, you've got a lot more to worry about, then getting swamped and hoping the floatation is going to save you.
     
  11. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    You can only be drowned once.....you've been lucky! :)
     
  12. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    Of course not having bouyancy foam is fine 99.9 % of the time, it's the 0.1% that constitutes the problem. The idea of having a boat sink under you at sea that could have been kept afloat by some cheap strategically placed foam is unconscionable, you may still die of hypothermia, but your survival prospects in a semi-submergerged boat is vastly greater than bobbing around with no more than a life jacket. What does need attention is the effect that a boat with a lot of water sloshing around in it has on stability to keep it upright, a far more desirable situation than a boat that is afloat, but upside down. To that end, the foam should be laid in more toward the sides, and up the sides, rather than concentrated along the centreline.
     
  13. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    Yeah, like parachuting from 1000ft. The first 999feet are fine, no matter what .

    But if your chute doesn't open, it's that last foot that makes all the difference.

    Personally, I wouldn't jump out of a plane without a parachute, and nor would I go to sea in a boat without floatation built in. On a river, maybe, if the banks aren't too far away.

    As Mr E says, foam should be along the sides, not just on the centreline under the floor.

    I fully intend to do just that with my Hartley, and completley fill the under transom space with foam (apart from a space for the fuel tank) and place some more larg-ish pieces under the foredeck and in the bow. I also inted to build bench seats, which will also have a large foam content, as well as some storage.

    Sure, it will lose some of the space inside the boat, but I figure that's a fair trade-off for peace of mind.
     
  14. djaus
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    djaus Salted Nut!

    I can confirm that my Hartley has NO built in flotation, apart from the timber it's built from. Having said that the huon pine offers little positive bouyancy & possibly none with an outboard bolted to the transom. It is no trouble fitting some styrene & I agree that lining the inner sheer & covering with some lovely varnished ply would look beautiful. Also considering that the people who will sometimes accompany me have no chance of swimming for shore if trouble strikes. You only have to look at your local beach to see the kind of debris that is floating around out there. Swamping is not the only risk, you obviously know this PAR, you said yourself it's happened to you more than once. Also I have ordered some premixed DOT/glycol today, $106 delivered to my door (5lt). I have taken more videos, as I've removed the aft decking & some frame bracing but I had to cut it short after being offered some gardening jobs, ironically with the neighbor I got the boat from & today while I was working there the other neighbor pounced on me & offered more work tomorrow. Friday I have a dentist appointment so won't be doing much 'til the weekend. I'm also waiting on some pic's via email regarding a 6mt boat trailer. My march deadline is looking pretty good right now. Might even smash it early!
     

  15. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    Huon pine ? Hell, a collectors item ! I definitely think you are right to be thinking of bouyancy foam. But the dentists bill will probably set the schedule back !
     
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